CR2008

The smallest gun I own now is the Kel Tec p32... I would not go below a .32ACP and I only purchased it because it's a BUG and offers a deep concealment option depending on the type of clothing I am to wear.

I can understand why many people bad mouth the .32acp though... I sure as well would not want to get hit by it and if hit in the CNS, I am sure your as screwed as if you got hit by a 9mm or 45acp in that position.

Defensive Arms

For self-defense purposes, I won't consider anything less than a 9mm or .38 Special.

homepcmd

Which is valid... for you...

Some cannot "handle" even a 380... so does that mean that they should have no gun?

My point is to remember that not everyone can handle firearms like you. Some do it better. Some cannot do it at all.

The latter should have options as much as the former.

Why deny it when even a .22 is better than screaming for help?

Just my opinion.

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QKShooter

I think I still have some interesting old .25 ammunition.
One a "hollow point" filled with a ball of Lead shot and another super high velocity "hollow point" which features a bullet of turned Brass.
I'll photograph them when I get a chance and post the pic here.
It might be a few days as my Bro has my camera.

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bmcgilvray

Hi QKShooter. You're the second person I've heard from that makes mention of .25 ammo featuring bullets turned from brass. I've never encountered such. Do post photos if you think about it.

Piglet

QKShooter said:

Is there any chance that you might still be able to post those pictures (or just the one of the brass turned HP, since I'm fairly sure the other load you refer to is the 45-grain Winchester Expanding Point round; correct me if I'm wrong)?

The fact that you mentioned its being a "super-high velocity" round rings a distinct bell in my head, as I remember mention being made very occasionally of a long-discontinued .25 ACP defense load that was a real screamer. In fact, I hope this thread can get a transfusion of new blood, as I feel the discussion of the .25's capabilities does indeed have real relevance even today, and I'd love to see it continue.

By the way, bmcgilvray, many thanks for the excellent review and comments.

cvhoss

Let me preface my comments below by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed the OP and appreciate the efforts of the poster in putting the report together for us. With that said;

I usually make it a point not to be a "caliber snob", arguing that the gun in your pocket is better than the one at home that you couldn't carry. The 25 acp is where I draw the line. Maybe in days gone by, it was an option due to lack of competing guns of similar size, but that is no longer true. Handguns of equal size and cost are readily available which to me, makes the 25 acp obsolete as a defensive cartridge. Going from published factory numbers:

22 LR -- CCI Stinger 32 gr. HP -- 191 ft. lbs.
22 LR -- CCI MiniMag 40 gr. Lead RN -- 135 ft. lbs.
25 acp -- Hornady 35 gr. XTP HP -- 63 ft. lbs.
32 acp -- Hornady 60 gr. XTP HP -- 133 ft. lbs.
380 acp -- Hornady 90 gr. XTP HP -- 200 ft. lbs.

The 25 acp falls short of virtually everything else available. Even the lowly 32 acp provides twice the energy of a 25 and while I still have my Tomcat and have carried it in the past, it has long since been retired in favor of the P3AT or LCP. While I definitely don't agree with everything Jeff Cooper ever said or wrote, I do like his quote concerning the 25 acp:
or from Massad F. Ayoob:
I'm not taking issue with anyone who likes plinking with a 25 and can afford the ammunition. I just believe that for a defensive handgun, there are much better options available.

Hoss

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BDA 380 / Taurus 85 / Kel-Tec PF-9 / Am. Derringer 357 / Sig Sauer 239 SAS / Walther PPS .40

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bmcgilvray

Hi cvhoss;

You won't find me arguing for the effectiveness of the .25 ACP. I picked up a P3AT for purposes for which my old Colt .25 was used previously.

Will say that published factory numbers don't tell the tale in the tiny stubbed barrels of the typical vest pocket .22 Long Rife pistols. The CCI .22s will yield far less than either 191 ft/lbs or the 135 ft./lbs figures shown when fired out of a sub-two-inch barrel. The .22 Long Rifle does not beat the .25 ACP when used in SIMILAR SIZED pistols. Of course neither makes it as a desirable self-defense proposition.

Tenring

Over 40 years ago I bought a tiny .25 Colt pistol in a pawn shop in Tuscon for $25. In Vietnam, I carried it always deep in my vest strictly as a last ditch backup in case I had no other weapon left. It was unlikely I would ever "lose" it. I also planned to use it on myself in case of imminent capture in certain areas over there. Fortunately, I never had to use it in either mode, but it did give me some peace of mind.

I know of only one time a similar .25 weapon was used over there - and in that instance it did prevent the guy from getting captured. He was able to shoot in the face at very close range an NVA with a rifle who was capturing him but got distracted by a strafing run on their position. The enemy was very close, at his arms length. But it worked out OK. He apparently stopped the bad guy and he fortunately got rescued shortly afterwards.

Say what you will about this anemic mousegun. It would be anybody's last choice, but it has been successful in certain situations.

Nowadays, of course, I would elect to carry a LCP or P3AT. But there was no other similar choice in those days.

So, I salute the lowly .25 ACP - but I would always carry something else if it were available.

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Piglet

cvhoss said:

Readily available in Kansas, you mean - and in most of the free United States. Unfortunately for those of us who live in Massachusetts, which has had a choke-hold on its gun-owning population since the implementation of the Attorney General's list of what guns may be sold in the state, options are severely limited.

No new Kel-Tecs.

No new Kahrs.

No Rohrbaughs.

No new North American Arms (NAA)

No Ruger LCP

No Seecamp .380 - though we can buy the California Edition .32. I have one, and it's basically a single-shot with a spare ammo compartment in the grip. This thread isn't the place for a discussion of the Seecamp's merits, so I'm not going to start, and I hope no one else does either.

I only list the above brands that we can't purchase in MA to make the point that, even though it's not as if the .25 is your only choice here (most people have Seecamp .32s), there's a much greater chance than there is in, say, Kansas that an old .25 such as the Colt 1908 or the Baby Browning will be chosen for a pocket gun because of the many, many fewer pocket gun choices we have here. There are quite a few venerable and inexpensive little peashooters in gun shops that are chambered for the .25. Old guns like these we can buy from dealers, provided they were registered in the state prior to the enaction of the restrictive legislation/regulations.

So in some special cases, people may find themselves in a position where the a tiny .25 ACP pistol is what they wind up with, for any number of reasons - laws and regulations as mentioned above, or else one is already in their possession and they don't have money for anything else, or a person is unlicensed and needs to carry anyway and it's the only thing available with no option for new purchase, etc.