jwhite75

Are those the Famous "flying ashtrays"? LOL

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bmcgilvray

Hi LouisianaMan;

The hunting load I developed for the Remington 200 grain lead round nose bullet used 9.5 grains of 2400 which which is a maximum load for that powder. I fired it over my chronograph from both a Smith & Wesson Model 10 with a 4-inch barrel and a Smith & Wesson Model 14 with an 8 3/8-inch barrel.

Velocity from the 4-inch barrel was 842 fps yielding 313 ft./lbs of energy.

Velocity from the 8 3/8-inch barrel was 922 fps, yielding 376 ft./lbs. of energy.

I took the buck with the 8 3/8-inch gun, the bullet damaging the right lung, top of the heart and ending up wedged in a rib just under the hide on the opposite side. It had turned sideways and had a large smear of lead about the side of a dime on one side. I don't now recall what the retained weight of the bullet was but it seems that it was about 95 %. The lead on these bullets is really soft.

I like the velocity performance of the 200 grain bullet in the 4-inch barrel. If I could obtain or mold bullets with a large flat nose of 200 grain weight I'd really go for such heavy bullets in the .38 Special (and the .357 Magnum). It'd be a good, hard-hitting bullet at velocities from 850 fps or more.

I once contrived to do an expansion test with the 200 grain bullet and the 2400 load using my 4-inch barreled .38 Special revolver. I lined up six one gallon plastic milk jugs full of water, thinking the bullet should stop in one of them. I carefully centered the sights on the front jug and fired. Upon firing I heard the bullet "thwack" into a stand of willows 50 yards behind my jugs. It had penetrated all the jugs.

LouisianaMan

BMC,
Those numbers are amazing! I've seen a post with old Lyman data for 195g, and the load with 2400 was in a different velocity class than the other powders. Its max loads were 893 fps ( no bbl length stated) with your 9.5g load; probably your b/c gap was tighter & gave you higher vels.

How did you find blast and/or flash with your 4" barrel revolver? I think 2400 is relatively slow-burning, thus does best in longer barrels--it might look like a flamethrower from my snubbies!

I'll load up some Win231 tomorrow, probably in the 750ish range from my 4" guns. For SD, I've like 800ish, but want to work in all my revolvers, to include a couple of D-frames--much weaker than the Rugers, of course.

Landric

I'd very much like to play around with a 200 grain lead bullet in .38 Special. However, I think I'd rather have a SWC profile. If I ever run across any bullets (not, as of yet at least, being a caster), I'd grab them and work up some loads.

__________________
-Landric

"The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

bmcgilvray

Hi LouisianaMan;

Yes, my data came from the Lyman 46th manual. I pulled it down just now to find that the test revolver that Lyman used was a Smith & Wesson Model 14 with a 6-inch barrel. My Model 14 has a longer barrel and the relatively slow burning 2400 yielded a dab more velocity.

From the 4-inch barrel I recall that the load made a brief yellow flash that wasn't as disturbing as is Blue Dot or Unique when fired in near maximum charges in the .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum with short barrels. I also found signs of powder residue that indicated inefficient burning in the .38 Special, likely due to the lower pressures required for the cartridge. In a Magnum revolver cartridge the 2400 burns fairly clean with full charges.

Still, the 2400 beat out Unique and IMR 4227 for gaining the most velocity from the unusually heavy bullet in the .38 Special. I tried all three powders and settled on 2400 as the most potent choice.

2400 also will kick out the 158 grain lead SWC at well over 1000 fps in a .38 Special with a 4-inch barrel but these days the .38 Special is watered down and some consider the loads in the old publications to be a bit stiff.

Hey Landric;

I agree with you that the heavy weight bullet in the .38 Special if configured as a semi-wadcutter and cast as soft lead would be an interesting and viable choice for self defense in the .38 Special, especially from a snub revolver.

LouisianaMan

BMC,
Thanks for the info on 2400. Like you, I've certainly noticed that older manuals pushed .38s a lot harder than today! It makes you wonder how much of the change is due to improved pressure-testing techniques, and how much of it is a function of lawsuit-happy modern times.

BMC & Landric,
You can get the 200g LSWC-K bullets from Mt. Baldy Bullets--they're on the Internet. They have prices for 100 and 500 bullet lots. "Mikey" on another forum says that this bullet is the same one offered by Colorado Cast Bullets, also on the Net. They sell 2000-bullet minimums.

FYI, this bullet profile does not chamber reliably in .38SPL chambers--it's too long unless you seat it very deep and crimp over the front shoulder. That gives you a case OAL far shorter than those used in reloading manuals. To keep velocities (and hopefully pressures!) to the same level, I reduced the 3.8g Win231 charge Mikey uses as a factory duplication load to 3.4g.

So far, I've only loaded a few of the 358430s I got my hands on, but I specifically wanted to see if this LRN blunt-nosed bullet chambers when seated to the same case OAL used in the manual (1.540, I think). Turns out that it fits just fine in my Colt D.S. I didn't measure the length of the Mt. Baldy LSWC-K and compare it to the 358430, but I suspect it's a bit longer & that is what causes the problem in a .38. I would imagine you could chamber it in a .357 revolver with no difficulty.

I recently stumbled across a group buy custom mold on another forum for a slightly modified 358430 6-cavity mold. I believe they still have some left--PM me if you want info on how to contact the honcho on that group buy. Delivery time is very uncertain right now, by the way, so patience will be necessary. :-)

bmcgilvray

Thanks for the heads-up on both the 200 grain LSWC Mt. Baldy bullet and the bullet mold. I believe I'll PM you.

I posted my views on .38 Special here on the Forum a while back.
.38 Special, Was There a Conspiracy?

Heresy I know but in my opinion, for the hand loader the .38 Special is the better cartridge over the 9mm. It's just that 9mm handguns hold lots of ammo.

LouisianaMan

BMC,
Great old post on the .38! I remember reading those 1970s Gun Digests with wide eyes as Super Vel ammo seemed to be the wave of the future. I've also been amazed to watch modern sources download the .38s more and more: I went to Fed, Rem and Win websites over the last couple of days and their standard 158g LRN or LSWC rounds are all listed at 755fps. Seems like only yesterday that they were all in the mid-800s or so!

Like you, I have nothing against any of the calibers, automatics, etc.--have shot, owned and enjoyed many of them. I was career military, and obviously for miltary service a reliable automatic beats a revolver due to quick reload capacity & hi-cap mags. Ditto, I imagine, for modern-day law enforcement, where we match our lawmen against unbelievable firepower, utterly brazen crooks, and with drastically restrictive RoE. It's natural that the military & police developments influence civilian selections in weapons & ammo.

For SD/HD/CC by a civilian, however, the dynamics of the situation and the tactical requirements are generally SO DIFFERENT from M&P requirements. Revolvers in general, and the workhorse .38SPL in particular, still fill the bill in an outstanding manner for most of us.

To get back to the original 200g focus of this thread, I'll toss this out as food for thought. The 158g +P with soft lead (i.e. Remington, esp.) is an outstanding combination of penetration and expansion, especially in 3" bbl. or longer. However, for someone seeking to optimize penetration, or for snub-noses which may have difficulty generating velocity & thus guaranteeing expansion, a 200g LSWC-K load offers an interesting way to fill the niche. With a load I chrono'ed at 718fps from a 2" bbl., it punched through six gallon jugs of water at 10', penetrated up to the shoulder into an old piece of treated 2x12 behind the jugs. The bullet track was straight as an arrow. Obviously "unscientific," but it allows some comparison with data on water penetration provided on Steve's Pages links. (See http://stevespages.com/page8f38special.html)

Anyone carrying concealed (I don't--schoolteacher these days) may want to slow down this load to avoid overpenetration. For my purposes, I feel pretty good that this load packs a controllable punch and that clothing or the odd piece of upholstered furniture won't intervene to defeat or turn my SD/HD slug, should that situation ever arise. The SWC-K configuration won't expand, but it will inflict a full-caliber permanent wound cavity--even more, if you agree with Beartooth Bullets "Ballisticians' Corner" on-line calculator, which predicts a permanent wound channel of .503" for this exact load. (See Beartooth Bullets > Ballistician's Corner > Permanent Wound Channel) If I have to shoot center mass on low light at a turning, twisting figure, I doubt that an intervening arm or hand will turn this slug aside, either, and that's a consideration for CCW folks, too.

LouisianaMan

OK, gents, a quick range report on yesterday's activities:

LOAD: 200g LRN 358430, Winchester case, Federal small pistol match primer (all I could get recently!), 3.8g Win231, COAL 1.540", crimped in third (i.e. top) lube groove with Lee Factory Crimp Die.

SAFETY NOTES: THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY-PUBLISHED DATA. I found three particularly interesting Internet references for this powder charge and bullet combination. One quotes it as the original Winchester factory load at 15.5K CUP., i.e. an older standard of .38SPL pressures which are now stated in PSI: (see "Mikey" at 200g hardcast in 357 mag ) The second is at http://www.castpics.net; Articles by Members; "Cast in the .38 Special." The third is at 38 Special 200grain LRN load data needed - THR

I also compared this 3.8g load to the Lee 2nd Edit., but emphasize that it does NOT list Win231. In other words, I HAVE NO HARD PUBLISHED DATA, and the on-line sources I could find give varying input as to the original factory specs of this round: 703fps "factory duplication"; 730fps; 770fps. Best guess on barrel lengths was 6", maybe even from a test barrel. . . .

So, here's what I got over my Beta Chrony at temp 97 degrees:

1. 2" bbl. Colt Det. Spl.: avg vel 662.9fps, extreme spread 30.9, standard deviation 10.19. Muzzle energy: 195 fpe. 6 of 10 rounds hit within one inch of POA at 15 yds. (old eyes!). POI was +8.5", L 2.5" from POA.

2. 4" bbl. Ruger Service-Six: avg 724.6fps, ES 29.28, SD 10.48. Muzzle energy 233 fpe. 5 of 10 rounds hit within one inch of POA at 15 yds. POI was + 0.25", R 1.5" from POA.

Group sizes (about 3" x 4" with D.S., 3" x 5" with Ruger) are representative of my limitations as a pistoleer. . .you'll have to shoot for yourself to see how accurate it may be! I can vouch that it is about as accurate for me as anything else :-) It's also reliable, accurate enough for close-range SD/HD work (my personal goal), and recoil is solid but easily controlled. Blast/flash were non-issues. All bullets cut a clean 1/4" hole in the paper--no keyholing occurred. SD is only a hair above single digits. BTW, I made no effort to ensure powder was forward on the bullet or back against the primer--I took them from the box, loaded, aimed, and fired.

I'll conduct a penetration test on milk jugs today & post the results.

Hopefully, I am getting a dozen original factory rounds soon, and I will post what I learn from them, to include a penetration test against the wily milk jugs. . . ! I'm also expecting info soon from another source, and will let you know what I turn up. My eventual goal is to find a top-end standard pressure load, then use those velocity figures to help me fine-tune the deep-seated/short OAL loads I've used with 200g LSWC-K. Then, I'll use LRNs for practice, the LSWC-K for service loads, and everything from recoil to POI should be the same.

sgtD

Interesting stuff. Look forward to reading the follow ups.

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