124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST

dbraves8 · June 28th, 2009, 10:11 PM

I know I already have a thread I left out the 147+P however. If a 124+P is good because it expands fast and travels at a good speed, the 147 doenst travel as fast but heavy bullet and penetrates more and expands more than the 124+P, also the 147+P is heavy and travels at a decent speed. So wouldnt the 147 +P be the best expands the most and good penetration. Will hold up in clothing test much more as well?

This is based on bullets from a 3" barrel

automatic slim · June 29th, 2009, 04:07 PM

I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.

johnsonabq · June 29th, 2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by automatic slim

I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.

How old is the article? Sound like a rather old view. The new HST in 147gr have tested quite well. Completely reliable in my PM9 and in all tests I've read have out penetrated the 124's every time.

BikerRN · June 29th, 2009, 05:54 PM

I've read the article, and yes it is old.

As I admitted in my first post, I have a prejudice towards the 147 grain 9mm bullets due to the older design. It's silly and irrational, but it's my view and I'm sticking with it for sentimental reasons.

As far as old bullets, I have no problems using an older design bullet. There is most likely reams of documentation on the bullet and most importantly, it has been proven or discarded for a reason.

Yes, the new Ford F150 will get me there in better comfort and style than the old 1972 F150, but they will both get me there. The new bullet design will get the job done, but so will the old one, if you take my point.

One advantage to using an older bullet style instead of the "latest and greatest" is that it may be easier to find and less costly. Thus, allowing you to practice more with your carry load.

Biker

BikerRN · June 29th, 2009, 05:58 PM

My "first post" was in a different thread.

Here it is, for those of you that may be interested in it:

Quote:

Bear in mind, my opinion is influenced by twenty years of carrying a gun, and studying various shootings over that course of time.

I personally have no use for 147 grain anything in 9mm due to it's past record in the late eighties and early to mid nineties. The mid-weight loads, or even the lighter 115 grain loads loaded to +P or +P+ have a good track record with lots of documentation behind them.

I realize that the 147 grain load has been redesigned and this is just my own personal prejudice, but having met a LEO that was later killed due to an over-penatrative 147 grain round does tend to factor in to my dislike of the round.

There is no "magic bullet". You would be better served practicing to put the round where it will stop the threat IMHO. In my personal 9mm I carry either 115 grain +P or +P+. I favor the +P+.

Biker
__________________

stoprilshoot · June 30th, 2009, 10:29 PM

its very clear what the survey says about the 147gr.

fanboys are us!

TheRogue · July 1st, 2009, 12:34 AM

It's not an option in your poll, but my favorite 9mm SD round, is the Winchester Ranger Talon 127gr. +P+ (RA9TA).

johnsonabq · July 1st, 2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

There is no "magic bullet". You would be better served practicing to put the round where it will stop the threat IMHO.
Biker

Yes, lets not forget the most important thing here.

Cat-O-Matic · July 3rd, 2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by automatic slim

I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article.

Ammo companies have improved the 147gr. round but this round falls short in contrast to Corbon's 115+p round. Because of the velocity Corbon's round is traveling -this round tends to fragment after entering a BG causing a much larger wound & faster incapacitation!

F350 · July 4th, 2009, 12:39 AM

A buddy and I did a ton of backyard ballistics testing in the 70s using warm duct seal (oil based clay, when warmed over night to >150 degrees it felt like raw steak). I know bullet designs have improved but I doubt any of the laws of physics have been revised. We would fire into the clay, roll it over and fill the cavity with plaster of paris to get a mold of the wound cavity. Yes somewhat out of date but a good point of comparison.

In every caliber the middle weight bullets gave the largest wound cavity, greatest expansion and near equal penetration to the heavier bullets. Expansion depends on velocity and while the lighter bullets have the velocity they did not seem to have enough bullet material to make a big mushroom, and the heaviest bullets while having plenty of bullet material did not seem to have the velocity to generate a good mushroom. It always seemed the mid weight bullets gave the best overall performance.

Recently with the advent of companies like Corbon utilizing solid copper bullets like the Barns X in their DPX loadings you have the light weight combined with sufficient bullet (due to copper being lighter than lead) to have the best combination. Before coming to Iraq I had switched all carry guns to solid copper rounds and that is what is in the wife's carry gun now.

View Poll Results: HST 9mm from 3" barrel
124+P	42	60.87%
147+P	8	11.59%
147	18	26.09%
other-post	1	1.45%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

June 28th, 2009, 10:11 PM	#1
dbraves8 Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 187	124+P vs. 147 vs. 147+P HST I know I already have a thread I left out the 147+P however. If a 124+P is good because it expands fast and travels at a good speed, the 147 doenst travel as fast but heavy bullet and penetrates more and expands more than the 124+P, also the 147+P is heavy and travels at a decent speed. So wouldnt the 147 +P be the best expands the most and good penetration. Will hold up in clothing test much more as well? This is based on bullets from a 3" barrel

June 29th, 2009, 04:07 PM	#2
automatic slim Distinguished Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The western edge of The Confederacy Posts: 1,222	I just read an article entitled "Ammunition for the self defense firearm". In it the author discusses loads for the various calibers. Regarding 9mm, he states 147gr. bullets are "weak, worthless and malfunction prone", and to "never" use 147gr. ammunition. He regards this as nothing more than a "fad". He considers the best 9mm load to be the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +P with a muzzle velocity in excess of 1475 fps. He also specifically refers to penetrating heavy clothing. Google the title and it will give you a link to the article. __________________ "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand." Edge of Darkness

June 29th, 2009, 05:54 PM	#4
BikerRN VIP Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: State of Discombobulation Posts: 3,768	I've read the article, and yes it is old. As I admitted in my first post, I have a prejudice towards the 147 grain 9mm bullets due to the older design. It's silly and irrational, but it's my view and I'm sticking with it for sentimental reasons. As far as old bullets, I have no problems using an older design bullet. There is most likely reams of documentation on the bullet and most importantly, it has been proven or discarded for a reason. Yes, the new Ford F150 will get me there in better comfort and style than the old 1972 F150, but they will both get me there. The new bullet design will get the job done, but so will the old one, if you take my point. One advantage to using an older bullet style instead of the "latest and greatest" is that it may be easier to find and less costly. Thus, allowing you to practice more with your carry load. Biker __________________ If I knew I was going to get in to a gunfight I most ceratinly wouln't bring a handgun or two, and I don't know any smart person that does.

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June 30th, 2009, 10:29 PM	#6
stoprilshoot Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: NC,USA Posts: 192	its very clear what the survey says about the 147gr. fanboys are us!

July 1st, 2009, 12:34 AM	#7
TheRogue Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: State of Jefferson Posts: 44	It's not an option in your poll, but my favorite 9mm SD round, is the Winchester Ranger Talon 127gr. +P+ (RA9TA).

July 4th, 2009, 12:39 AM	#10
F350 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Al Taqaddum airbase, Iraq Posts: 697	A buddy and I did a ton of backyard ballistics testing in the 70s using warm duct seal (oil based clay, when warmed over night to >150 degrees it felt like raw steak). I know bullet designs have improved but I doubt any of the laws of physics have been revised. We would fire into the clay, roll it over and fill the cavity with plaster of paris to get a mold of the wound cavity. Yes somewhat out of date but a good point of comparison. In every caliber the middle weight bullets gave the largest wound cavity, greatest expansion and near equal penetration to the heavier bullets. Expansion depends on velocity and while the lighter bullets have the velocity they did not seem to have enough bullet material to make a big mushroom, and the heaviest bullets while having plenty of bullet material did not seem to have the velocity to generate a good mushroom. It always seemed the mid weight bullets gave the best overall performance. Recently with the advent of companies like Corbon utilizing solid copper bullets like the Barns X in their DPX loadings you have the light weight combined with sufficient bullet (due to copper being lighter than lead) to have the best combination. Before coming to Iraq I had switched all carry guns to solid copper rounds and that is what is in the wife's carry gun now.