Range Owner Says Speer's .45 Cal. 200+p is no good??? - Page 2

Captain Crunch · July 5th, 2009, 02:24 AM

This is just one gunshop commando's opinion.

And we all know what that's worth...

Tiny85 · July 5th, 2009, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryM

It has been my experience that folks who work in sporting goods stores, gun shops, and shooting ranges think that they have a lot of knowledge about what they sell, and in many cases what they don't sell. A little research will show that they have a very much self inflated idea as to what they know.

Take such folks with a grain of salt.
I would be perfectly satisfied to use that ammo for my carry guns forever. I would say that if there was a problem it would be that the large cavity mouth might not feel well in some guns.
If it feeds it is a very good round.

Regards,
Jerry

+1

If it feeds and it goes bang then I'd say it can't be a bad SD round.

Where was he trying to lean you in regards to ammo selection? seldom will an associate talk you out of one ammo they have to sell you on an ammo they don't carry. If he was pushing you to another ammo around the same price he may in fact be making a genuine recommendation.

Shaughn · July 5th, 2009, 04:08 AM

According to Speer, the 45 acp 200 grain GD +P loading is the modern representation of their original Flying Ashtray load and the only reason for the change was that machine and tooling for the original bullet was getting so worn out it was no longer cost effective to try and keep it going, given that the company who had made it was no longer in existence.

They even made improvements, such as bonded jacket, tweaked the bullet's profile to improve feeding, improved the design of the cavity, so that the expansion profile would be symmetrical and a range of weights 185,200,230 and 230 SB.

I was an ardent follower of the "Ashtray" and if I had been able to find a reliable local supply of it I would have continued to carry it.

boscobeans · July 5th, 2009, 02:42 PM

Here's a pic of a Speer .45 200grain JHP bullet #4477.

Looks like it will do the job, at least to me.

bosco

Shaughn · July 5th, 2009, 02:53 PM

Where did you find components? I must have cleaned out 4 states of supplies when I heard about the change :)

boscobeans · July 5th, 2009, 02:58 PM

I bought several thousand in bulk when they for sale from Midway. But that was a few years ago. I am down to about 500 now.

bosco

RichardB · July 5th, 2009, 06:45 PM

This part of the ATK/Speer/federal ammo web site has some tests done in front of and by LEOS. They are gello tests using the calibers of that particular department.

LE - Wound Ballistics

Someone else will have to expert me as to whether to expect the same performance from non-LEO designated rounds (possibly another battle of electrons).

Arko · July 5th, 2009, 07:44 PM

Same kind of person who swears only what gun/ammo they carry are worth a darn.

Landric · July 6th, 2009, 09:08 AM

Lets look at it this way, its a +P .45 ACP, mid-range in weight, and has been around in one form or another for years. How bad could it be?

Provided it feeds in your weapon, and you don't mind the possible increase in recoil since its +P, what does it matter if there might be a "better" load out there? You do your job, it will do its job. Bullet design, velocity, muzzle energy, etc., will not make up for poor shot placement. With adequate penetration and good shot placement, everything else is secondary. Does anyone doubt that a 200 grain .451 bullet is capable of adequate penetration?

automatic slim · July 6th, 2009, 10:31 AM

The guy didn't actually say it was bad or ineffective, only that there were better.
I'm not real familiar with Speer bullets, but the photo posted by Boscoe seems to show a bullet without the precut grooves near the cavity many other bullets employ. This precutting would seem to enhance expansion. I'm not an engineer,
but it seems the Speer bullet could use some updating.

July 5th, 2009, 02:24 AM	#11
Captain Crunch 1943 - 2009 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Montana Posts: 10,408	This is just one gunshop commando's opinion. And we all know what that's worth... __________________ When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains, And go to your God like a soldier. Rudyard Kipling Terry

July 5th, 2009, 07:44 PM	#18
Arko Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cleveland, TN Posts: 588	Same kind of person who swears only what gun/ammo they carry are worth a darn. __________________ "Don't Tread on Me"

July 6th, 2009, 09:08 AM	#19
Landric Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 431	Lets look at it this way, its a +P .45 ACP, mid-range in weight, and has been around in one form or another for years. How bad could it be? Provided it feeds in your weapon, and you don't mind the possible increase in recoil since its +P, what does it matter if there might be a "better" load out there? You do your job, it will do its job. Bullet design, velocity, muzzle energy, etc., will not make up for poor shot placement. With adequate penetration and good shot placement, everything else is secondary. Does anyone doubt that a 200 grain .451 bullet is capable of adequate penetration? __________________ -Landric "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

July 6th, 2009, 10:31 AM	#20
automatic slim Distinguished Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The western edge of The Confederacy Posts: 1,223	The guy didn't actually say it was bad or ineffective, only that there were better. I'm not real familiar with Speer bullets, but the photo posted by Boscoe seems to show a bullet without the precut grooves near the cavity many other bullets employ. This precutting would seem to enhance expansion. I'm not an engineer, but it seems the Speer bullet could use some updating. __________________ "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand." Edge of Darkness

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July 5th, 2009, 04:08 AM	#13
Shaughn Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 30	According to Speer, the 45 acp 200 grain GD +P loading is the modern representation of their original Flying Ashtray load and the only reason for the change was that machine and tooling for the original bullet was getting so worn out it was no longer cost effective to try and keep it going, given that the company who had made it was no longer in existence. They even made improvements, such as bonded jacket, tweaked the bullet's profile to improve feeding, improved the design of the cavity, so that the expansion profile would be symmetrical and a range of weights 185,200,230 and 230 SB. I was an ardent follower of the "Ashtray" and if I had been able to find a reliable local supply of it I would have continued to carry it.

July 5th, 2009, 02:53 PM	#15
Shaughn Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 30	Where did you find components? I must have cleaned out 4 states of supplies when I heard about the change :)

July 5th, 2009, 02:58 PM	#16
boscobeans Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: upstate new york Posts: 723	I bought several thousand in bulk when they for sale from Midway. But that was a few years ago. I am down to about 500 now. bosco

July 5th, 2009, 06:45 PM	#17
RichardB Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NC Posts: 15	This part of the ATK/Speer/federal ammo web site has some tests done in front of and by LEOS. They are gello tests using the calibers of that particular department. LE - Wound Ballistics Someone else will have to expert me as to whether to expect the same performance from non-LEO designated rounds (possibly another battle of electrons).