RBCD Ammo controversy - Page 3

HowardCohodas · July 9th, 2009, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy

I didn't see the post claiming that a LE department is using the ammo so these questions may have already been addressed. Who made the claim? Someone from the company? Someone claiming to be from the actual department? Just wondering how the claim was verified.

In the OP I linked to an article in the current issue of American Cop Magazine titled "Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like Firepower" by Bob Pilgrim.

The article begins as follows:

Quote:

Recently, it came to my attention the highly respected Coral Gables, Florida police department has, after extensive study and research adopted light weight, high velocity Le Mas SPLP/SRAP (Law Enforcement Military Ammunition Special Purpose Limited Penetration/ Short Range Armor Penetrating) ammunition. The adoption applies across their small arms spectrum for its issue pistols and rifles. After reading their study and examining subsequent positive reports by medical professionals, at the request of American Cop magazine, I attended a live fire medical training demonstration involving this unconventional ammunition.

The demonstration was conducted at DARC training facility (Direct Action Resource Center) near Little Rock, Arkansas and involved military medical personnel training to treat and save battlefield casualties during the “Golden Hour.” The DARC advanced combat emergency medical training program includes the use of anesthetized animals under the care of a licensed veterinarian according to US government protocols. The animals were alive, but felt no pain or discomfort. In addition to thoracic and extremity gunshot wounds, the animals were exposed to other typical tactical traumas that Coalition Forces were experiencing in the two current theaters of conflict. Young men and women responded immediately and worked feverously by employing field or “Ditch” medical techniques. They made every attempt to stabilize, treat and sustain their “patients” for transport to advanced medical care facilities. However, when Le Mas (LM) handgun ammunitions inflicted wounds to either the thorax or an extremity, their valiant efforts proved futile.

OD · July 9th, 2009, 12:21 PM

HowardCohodas · July 9th, 2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Clever? Maybe.
Amusing? So, so.
Illuminating the issue? Not!

I'm looking for informed feedback to help me analyze both sides of the issue. I am disappointed in posts like yours. Oh well.

OD · July 9th, 2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

I am disappointed in posts like yours. Oh well.

I'm sure you are not the first Howard. Life must be a drag with out a sense of humor.

Randy · July 9th, 2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

In the OP I linked to an article in the current issue of American Cop Magazine titled "Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like Firepower" by Bob Pilgrim.

The article begins as follows:

Thanks for posting here. I did look at the article linked in your first post but admittedly stopped reading it word for word once I realized what it was about. That ammunition has been around for a while and the claims regarding performance have always been nonsensical.

The DARC website looks a little questionable to me. Hard to judge a book by the cover though.

The animal testing bit reminds me of the story of the Strasbourg goat tests. Hey, it sold lots of "Guns and Blaster" magazines.

I wonder if anyone has contacted the department to verify the ammunition claim. I would like to believe that any credible LE agency wouldn't fall for a marketing spin but who knows...

Randy

hogdaddy · July 9th, 2009, 01:58 PM

I thought the (BS) meter don't lie

shooterX · July 9th, 2009, 02:02 PM

I found it funny.

10thmtn · July 9th, 2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackeagle

Velocity. When you strip away all the "blended metal" BS, the RBCD pistol ammo is just a very lightweight, high velocity load. 60 grain 9mm, 77 grain .40, and 90 grain .45, all going around 2000fps. RCBD is not the first company to try this (which is probably why their marketing is so misleading). The characteristics of lightweight, high velocity pistol bullets are well known: they produce large but relatively shallow wounds. They look nasty, and can, eventually, be lethal, but they don't do as good a job of incapacitating an assailant as a deeper penetrating hollowpoint will.

No, they are much less likely to immediately stop an assailant.

I think this nails it.

Maybe a call to that PD is in order to verify the story. Maybe they are willing to trade penetration in flesh for the ability to defeat body armor? IMHO, a better bet would be the Rhodesian drill (2 to the upper torso, 1 to the head) with more conventional ammo...

AutoFan · July 10th, 2009, 02:11 AM

There is no controversy. It is marketing hype and junk science. Really light bullets with a very low sectional density traveling really fast will slow down really fast, especially after expanding. It will not penetrate deep enough to do any real damage. And the explanation about the bullets sensing the temperature or makeup of the target is BS. How does it sense these things? How does the bullet change its behavior as a result? And how does it do this in the milliseconds between firing and impact? The answers are it can't.

Tubby45 · July 10th, 2009, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

With all due respect, I find categorical statements without any support unhelpful in sorting out the elements of the controversy.

Let's see:

Loses credibility with marketing hype
Loses credibility with long acronyms
Improper research
Is nothing but a light bullet at high velocity with high prices.

If you can't figure it out, there's no hope.

July 9th, 2009, 12:21 PM	#22
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 3,292	__________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper*

July 9th, 2009, 01:58 PM	#26
hogdaddy Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N/E Florida Posts: 1,223	I thought the (BS) meter don't lie __________________ WE SAY GRACE & WE SAY MAM IF YA AINT IN THE SOUTH WE DON'T GIVE A DAM / WE CAN SKIN A BUCK & RUN A TROUTE LINE & A COUNTRY BOY CAN (SURVIVE)>>HANK JR.

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July 9th, 2009, 02:02 PM	#27
shooterX Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,563	I found it funny.

July 10th, 2009, 02:11 AM	#29
AutoFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Sunshine State Posts: 1,143	There is no controversy. It is marketing hype and junk science. Really light bullets with a very low sectional density traveling really fast will slow down really fast, especially after expanding. It will not penetrate deep enough to do any real damage. And the explanation about the bullets sensing the temperature or makeup of the target is BS. How does it sense these things? How does the bullet change its behavior as a result? And how does it do this in the milliseconds between firing and impact? The answers are it can't.