RBCD Ammo controversy - Page 6

Majorlk · July 25th, 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

I am suspicious of reporting that resorts to ad hominem attacks ("his work is junk science"), ...

An ad hominem attack is an attack on a person, not on his/her work. Since the comment was about the work - "his work is junk science" - it was not an ad hominem attack.

Randy · July 25th, 2009, 09:27 PM

Courtney is a name I recognize. Agreed - junk science.

Randy

vn6869 · July 28th, 2009, 03:13 AM

Can I presume RBCD Ammo is all smoke and mirrors?

OD · July 28th, 2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vn6869

Can I presume RBCD Ammo is all smoke and mirrors?

That would be a good bet.

bodhisattvya · July 28th, 2009, 09:29 PM

Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Unit was one of the individuals involved in the concept behind RBCD ammo. Everything I have read of Mr. Cirillo, he was a great study of ballistics & the lethality of carry ammo. If Jim Cirillo was attached to its inception, I believe RBCD to be more than "smoke & mirrors."

OD · July 29th, 2009, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Jim Cirillo helped lend a hand in developing RBCD ammo...

Can you point me to where I may read up on that? (besides RBCD's website)

Randy · July 29th, 2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

Also, as an "industry professional" he would have some credibility if he contacts the Coral Gables PD to see what due-diligence they performed in making this choice.

Any word on this yet? I can call if not.

Randy

shooterX · July 29th, 2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Can you point me to where I may read up on that? (besides RBCD's website)

Yeah I'd like proof of this also.

Texas Yankee · July 29th, 2009, 07:28 PM

I don't know about any of RBCD's claims and don't really care what Le Mas has said. I just want to know do they work. So I tested 9 mm RBCD, Corbon DPX and Glaser silver on pork roasts. The Corbon expanded well and penetrated at least 17 inches, a couple went through. Even with full expansion the diameter of the hole isn't the big, well less than an inch. The glasers produced holes that were about 5-8 inches deep and at the widest point about 2 inches in diameter. There were a couple of BBs that penetrated to about 10 inches. The RBCD produced a cone that was about 5 inches wide and about 7 inches deep with additional minor penetration out to 8-10 inches. The holes were very similar to the ones in the pictures in the article.

Was my test scientific? Nope. Should you rely on it? Nope. Do the test yourself. But from seeing it, I have to believe most BGs are going to be shocked by a hole 5 inches wide in them even if only 7 inches deep and I have to believe you are going to get a whole lot of bleeding from that kind of hole.

Glasers have been found effective against unarmored BGs. I have to believe from what I saw that RBCDs would be more effective.

So for my in house defence, I use three rounds of RBCDs with Corbon DPX
filling the magazine.

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 08:16 PM

I load RBCD in all my back up mags and Mag Safe in my primary (in the gun) mags. Why RBCD? I have a very good friend, retired as a senior officer in Special Operations who once told me that SOCOM buys the stuff by the pallet and he personally would never go with anything else when it's HIS neck on the line. I have heard this from other operators as well. I have heard a lot of folks on this form and on others offer a lot of negative comments on RBCD but I'll keep my own counsel. A lot of folks like to point to the famous BOX-O-TRUTH results but I never put any stock in gallon jugs of water simulating flesh. I can't stand that "test site." For grins I have also purchased RBCD in .223 and 454 Casull. I also have them in both 9mm and 45ACP and I'll probably buy some more boxes in both those calibers.

July 25th, 2009, 09:27 PM	#52
Randy Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Staunton, Va. Posts: 302	Courtney is a name I recognize. Agreed - junk science. Randy __________________ Defensive Training Concepts, Inc. Staunton, Va.

July 28th, 2009, 09:29 PM	#55
bodhisattvya New Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Eugene, OR, USA Posts: 3	Jim Cirillo helped lend a hand in developing RBCD ammo... Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Unit was one of the individuals involved in the concept behind RBCD ammo. Everything I have read of Mr. Cirillo, he was a great study of ballistics & the lethality of carry ammo. If Jim Cirillo was attached to its inception, I believe RBCD to be more than "smoke & mirrors."

July 29th, 2009, 08:16 PM	#60
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,856	I load RBCD in all my back up mags and Mag Safe in my primary (in the gun) mags. Why RBCD? I have a very good friend, retired as a senior officer in Special Operations who once told me that SOCOM buys the stuff by the pallet and he personally would never go with anything else when it's HIS neck on the line. I have heard this from other operators as well. I have heard a lot of folks on this form and on others offer a lot of negative comments on RBCD but I'll keep my own counsel. A lot of folks like to point to the famous BOX-O-TRUTH results but I never put any stock in gallon jugs of water simulating flesh. I can't stand that "test site." For grins I have also purchased RBCD in .223 and 454 Casull. I also have them in both 9mm and 45ACP and I'll probably buy some more boxes in both those calibers. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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July 28th, 2009, 03:13 AM	#53
vn6869 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Illinois (Not Chicago!!!) Posts: 136	Can I presume RBCD Ammo is all smoke and mirrors?

July 29th, 2009, 07:28 PM	#59
Texas Yankee Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dallas, Tx Posts: 294	I don't know about any of RBCD's claims and don't really care what Le Mas has said. I just want to know do they work. So I tested 9 mm RBCD, Corbon DPX and Glaser silver on pork roasts. The Corbon expanded well and penetrated at least 17 inches, a couple went through. Even with full expansion the diameter of the hole isn't the big, well less than an inch. The glasers produced holes that were about 5-8 inches deep and at the widest point about 2 inches in diameter. There were a couple of BBs that penetrated to about 10 inches. The RBCD produced a cone that was about 5 inches wide and about 7 inches deep with additional minor penetration out to 8-10 inches. The holes were very similar to the ones in the pictures in the article. Was my test scientific? Nope. Should you rely on it? Nope. Do the test yourself. But from seeing it, I have to believe most BGs are going to be shocked by a hole 5 inches wide in them even if only 7 inches deep and I have to believe you are going to get a whole lot of bleeding from that kind of hole. Glasers have been found effective against unarmored BGs. I have to believe from what I saw that RBCDs would be more effective. So for my in house defence, I use three rounds of RBCDs with Corbon DPX filling the magazine.