RBCD Ammo controversy - Page 7

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

It's been reported that Coral Gables PD did had a testing and evaluation process before selecting the RBCD ammo. I'm perusing if a report was written and if it is available.

Well, since I live in Coral Gables and that's MY police dept, I'll have to check this out.

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowardCohodas

In the OP I linked to an article in the current issue of American Cop Magazine titled "Le Mas Handgun Ammo Rifle-Like Firepower" by Bob Pilgrim.

The article begins as follows:

Okay so wait: Is this stuff RBCD or not that the Gables PD is loading?

10thmtn · July 29th, 2009, 09:40 PM

The issue with all shallow penetration rounds is that, frequently, your rounds will need to penetrate hands and/or forearms before even getting to the chest cavity.

Think of an attacker - his hands will almost always be outstretched towards you...either holding a weapon, or instinctively shielding himself from your return fire.

Think of your own shots - many will land on those outstretched arms and hands. You will naturally focus on the hands, since that is where the danger is. That is also where your shots will tend to go. Try it at the range with a target depicting a gun or knife wielding attacker.

If you use Glaser or RBCD ammo, the bullet will fragment upon hitting the forearms or hands. The chest will only get fragments - resulting in much less spectacular damage than seen in meat or gel tests.

Then there is the issue of angled, oblique shots. The upper chest cavity is not too deep front-to-back, but come in at an angle from the side, and penetration needs to go up to reach the vitals.

Can a fragmenting round work? Sure. Most thugs will likely stop if their arm is blown up. But...if it's a right handed motivated or drugged thug and his left arm is blown up...maybe not. Not before he kills you.

Shot placement. Penetration. No magic bullets.

JMHO.

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Yankee

I don't know about any of RBCD's claims and don't really care what Le Mas has said. I just want to know do they work. So I tested 9 mm RBCD, Corbon DPX and Glaser silver on pork roasts.

I would love to test them on roasts. Or maybe a huge chunk of prime rib! But with the price of MEAT

these days (which is almost more than ammo) I can't afford this test, so since I believe in RBCD already I'll just take your word for it. But I would truly love to see what a RBCD 454 Casull would do to such a roast!

10thmtn · July 29th, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExSoldier

I have a very good friend, retired as a senior officer in Special Operations who once told me that SOCOM buys the stuff by the pallet...

Are you sure they use this ammo on operations? Or as a training round? (Fragments against steel plate targets)

Given the military's need to penetrate cover, I find it hard to believe that they use this ammo operationally. I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here?...

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thmtn

Are you sure they use this ammo on operations? Or as a training round? (Fragments against steel plate targets)

Given the military's need to penetrate cover, I find it hard to believe that they use this ammo operationally. I wonder if there is a misunderstanding here?...

Nope. This guy was a specialist in Afghanistan (although I'm thinking it was like 2002 or 2003 because he's now been retired a few years) and he said the "MUJ" they faced weren't wearing a lot of body armor. Like chasing mountain boys thru the caves if you get my meaning. He said he liked it not only because it always flattened the bad guys whether or not he was using a 1911 45, an M9 9mm or a Sig P226 in anything... but because in the dark it was low flash low recoil and when you're wearing a NOD it makes a difference.

He gave me a few examples but I had the feeling the discussion was in confidence so I'm not going to relate them here. Suffice to say this guy and his team were way impressed with RBCD in Afghanistan.

This was no training load, either. RBCD is waaaay too expensive to be a training round. Winchester does make a frangible load that is specifically designed for training indoors. That goes for like $7.50 a box of 50. RBCD is $39.95 for a box of 20. With the Winchester, it states on the box that it is specifically a training load and not for self defense.

bbqgrill · July 29th, 2009, 11:50 PM

I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".

ExSoldier · July 29th, 2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbqgrill

I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom".

You're so critical, feel free to exit the discussion at any moment.

Blademan21 · July 30th, 2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Can you point me to where I may read up on that? (besides RBCD's website)

I can. Gun World..April 2000.Atricle written by Nick Spano.Then there was Guns&Ammo/Handguns. April 2001.Article written by Cpl. Ed Sanow. Hope that helps.

Blademan21 · July 30th, 2009, 01:59 AM

I was not going to add this,but I must. I have tested the .45acp 90gr. stuff through car windshields with no deflection at all, striking a 25lb block of clay. The round did not pass through the clay. Even shot the windshield,striking the dash next and the round still hit the clay without going through it. When we shot the door,the round went through the door striking the clay and stopping. Second round into the door struck the inside door beam and stopped without striking the clay. I don't think a .223 round would have passed through the inside door beam.Just grown men's curiosity satisified that day. Needles to say I carry RBCD in all the handguns and my SOCOM 16.

July 29th, 2009, 09:40 PM	#63
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 660	The issue with all shallow penetration rounds is that, frequently, your rounds will need to penetrate hands and/or forearms before even getting to the chest cavity. Think of an attacker - his hands will almost always be outstretched towards you...either holding a weapon, or instinctively shielding himself from your return fire. Think of your own shots - many will land on those outstretched arms and hands. You will naturally focus on the hands, since that is where the danger is. That is also where your shots will tend to go. Try it at the range with a target depicting a gun or knife wielding attacker. If you use Glaser or RBCD ammo, the bullet will fragment upon hitting the forearms or hands. The chest will only get fragments - resulting in much less spectacular damage than seen in meat or gel tests. Then there is the issue of angled, oblique shots. The upper chest cavity is not too deep front-to-back, but come in at an angle from the side, and penetration needs to go up to reach the vitals. Can a fragmenting round work? Sure. Most thugs will likely stop if their arm is blown up. But...if it's a right handed motivated or drugged thug and his left arm is blown up...maybe not. Not before he kills you. Shot placement. Penetration. No magic bullets. JMHO. __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

July 29th, 2009, 11:50 PM	#67
bbqgrill Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Castle County, DE where is that? East of the Mason Dixon Line. Posts: 442	I watched my 11 year old nephew arguing about pokeman trading cards this entire discussion is so similar. If you like the RCBS load it up, if you like tried and true load it up. This thread boarders on infantile; I can't wait till someone says "your mom". __________________ "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: Deu 20:12

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July 30th, 2009, 01:59 AM	#70
Blademan21 Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: So. California Posts: 122	I was not going to add this,but I must. I have tested the .45acp 90gr. stuff through car windshields with no deflection at all, striking a 25lb block of clay. The round did not pass through the clay. Even shot the windshield,striking the dash next and the round still hit the clay without going through it. When we shot the door,the round went through the door striking the clay and stopping. Second round into the door struck the inside door beam and stopped without striking the clay. I don't think a .223 round would have passed through the inside door beam.Just grown men's curiosity satisified that day. Needles to say I carry RBCD in all the handguns and my SOCOM 16.