RBCD Ammo controversy

HowardCohodas · July 8th, 2009, 12:39 PM

There seems to be a considerable amount of controversy surrounding the RBCD ammo. What is your take?

I found an article in this month's American Cop magazine on page 46. American COP July/August 2009

DocGKR has his take as well. LeMas/RBCD Ammunition Analysis - M4Carbine.net Forums

shooterX · July 8th, 2009, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the post. I have some of this ammunition, in .40 s&w, .357 magnum, and .38 special. The first two or three rounds in my EDC's are RBCD, followed by a Federal Hydro-shok, or the Nyclads for my .38 special.

Knuckledrager · July 8th, 2009, 02:31 PM

Both Doc Roberts and DoD have raised the BS flag about the claims of LeMas ammo. Their reports, which are available to LE agencies and .mil organizations list the break down of the testing and results. I would not use the stuff.

10thmtn · July 8th, 2009, 02:38 PM

Another test:

The Box O' Truth #38 - RBCD Ammo Vs. The Box O' Truth - Page 1

The idea that a fast-moving bullet will "suck heat" from living tissue, and that this will make the bullet disintegrate, sounds like nonsense to me. The bullet comes to rest upon impact so quickly that there is no time for the bullet to absorb heat from the tissue - not to mention that any heat absorbed from the tissue pales in comparison to the heat generated by firing, and friction with the inside of the barrel as the bullet is shot downrange.

shooterX - you may wish to unseat one of those bullets and cut it open to see what is really inside the jacket - looks like a plain lead tip and a silicone ball behind it (to get the light weight and faster velocity) - not the "blended metal" advertised.

If you do, I'm sure we'd all be interested in the results...

Edit - nowhere in that "American Cop" article does it mention how far the bullet penetrated into the hogs - that tells me something. The fact that the hogs lived for a while after being shot with this super duper ammo - long enough for the medical teams in training to try and save them - also tells me something.

That ultralight/ultrafast ammo can penetrate a ballistic vest is not news - barrier penetration is related to kinetic energy, which increases with the square of velocity. Insert big BUT here...penetration in tissue is related to momentum, which is simply mass x velocity. Ultralight/ultrafast bullets typically underpenetrate, due to their lower momentum energy.

Set up a target at the range, with a picture of an attacker holding a weapon. Note how many of your shots hit the target's forearms. Those shots would need to penetrate the forearms before even reaching the chest - then they would need to reach the vitals deep within the chest cavity. Throw in shots at an angle, and thick clothing, and you can see why 12" of penetration is the minimum.

Janq · July 8th, 2009, 03:04 PM

I'm shocked to see this ammo as being featured in a conventional magazine never mind the assertion as made by the author toward penetration of various metals and being compared to that of DPX and Golden Saber as _better_.

I'd read the DoCGKR report a couple of years ago and there is another out there as well IIRC from either DoD or the US Army, I can't off hand recall which it was. Both reports thoroughly debunked the product, it's claims, and the heat sink theory as detailed too.
But then oppositely at the same time there had been a report by a writer as then associated with Blackwater that indicated this stuff was the cats meow, similar to the above linked American Cop magazine article.

- Janq

Tubby45 · July 8th, 2009, 03:46 PM

RBCD ammo is all hype and no performance.

HowardCohodas · July 8th, 2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby45

RBCD ammo is all hype and no performance.

With all due respect, I find categorical statements without any support unhelpful in sorting out the elements of the controversy.

Some further observations:

I read DocGKR's report.
As far as I can tell, the DoD report is restricted to contractors. I'd like some input from someone who has access to this report. Categorical statements such as "it backs up everything DocGKR said" are not very illuminating.
I would find it difficult to believe that the Florida LE agency mentioned in the article didn't do some form of due-diligence before making their decision.
None of the detractors have explanations for the observations made by the author. The observations are compelling in spite of the criticisms of marketing hyperbole and it's failure to perform well in tissue simulant like ballistic gel.

My objective is to gain some understanding of both sides of the issue by getting a variety of input so that I can make my own informed decision.

Janq · July 8th, 2009, 04:47 PM

The fact that as reported the FL LE switched to this product is quite interesting, as against the results featured in the govt. report (DoD or Army) that I'd read which pretty much matched directly with the findings as featured in DoCDKR's posting.

Possibly this is a new and wholly different product than what was tested two years ago, although the statements and reflections in this article very closely mirror that of the Blackwater person from same time frame.

It's very odd and again I'm stunned to see this manufacturer/product pop back up as a reported item.

- Janq

Blackeagle · July 8th, 2009, 04:55 PM

Reading the American Cop article, one thing that seems odd is the author's emphasis on the lethality of the round. He even quotes a surgeon on how difficult it would be to treat a wound from one of these bullets. Frankly, lethality isn't very relevant to self defense. I don't really care if the assailant dies on the operating table hours after I shoot him. I care if he stops trying to kill me right this second.

shooterX · July 8th, 2009, 05:12 PM

My main concern is/was over penetration, however, after reading some of these articles, and searching for more this afternoon, I will be removing this ammo from my firearms this evening and either replacing the first two rounds with a Glaser or just going back to using HP. I may try and remove the bullet and cut it in half if I can find a tool that'll work. Will let you know what I find is I do this.

Ok got home and pulled one of the .38 specials apart and took a chisel to the copper jacket, just as the information debunked. the jacket was hollow, with a polymer ball inside and topped off with the lead soft point. Don't see how this stuff is supposed to fragment or not over penetrate. Guess I'll use it up at the range and be rid of it. Took all of it out of my EDC's and truck gun. Reloaded with federal hydro-shoks in my XDsc.40, Federal Nyclads in my Colt Det. Spcl, Hornady Critical defense in my S&W 342, and two glassers followed federal 125gr critcal defense in my S&W model 66, my house gun. Here are a couple of pictures.

July 8th, 2009, 12:39 PM	#1
HowardCohodas Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Canton, OH Posts: 852	RBCD Ammo controversy There seems to be a considerable amount of controversy surrounding the RBCD ammo. What is your take? I found an article in this month's American Cop magazine on page 46. American COP July/August 2009 DocGKR has his take as well. LeMas/RBCD Ammunition Analysis - M4Carbine.net Forums __________________ Howard *I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!*

July 8th, 2009, 02:38 PM	#4
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 665	Another test: The Box O' Truth #38 - RBCD Ammo Vs. The Box O' Truth - Page 1 The idea that a fast-moving bullet will "suck heat" from living tissue, and that this will make the bullet disintegrate, sounds like nonsense to me. The bullet comes to rest upon impact so quickly that there is no time for the bullet to absorb heat from the tissue - not to mention that any heat absorbed from the tissue pales in comparison to the heat generated by firing, and friction with the inside of the barrel as the bullet is shot downrange. shooterX - you may wish to unseat one of those bullets and cut it open to see what is really inside the jacket - looks like a plain lead tip and a silicone ball behind it (to get the light weight and faster velocity) - not the "blended metal" advertised. If you do, I'm sure we'd all be interested in the results... Edit - nowhere in that "American Cop" article does it mention how far the bullet penetrated into the hogs - that tells me something. The fact that the hogs lived for a while after being shot with this super duper ammo - long enough for the medical teams in training to try and save them - also tells me something. That ultralight/ultrafast ammo can penetrate a ballistic vest is not news - barrier penetration is related to kinetic energy, which increases with the square of velocity. Insert big BUT here...penetration in tissue is related to momentum, which is simply mass x velocity. Ultralight/ultrafast bullets typically underpenetrate, due to their lower momentum energy. Set up a target at the range, with a picture of an attacker holding a weapon. Note how many of your shots hit the target's forearms. Those shots would need to penetrate the forearms before even reaching the chest - then they would need to reach the vitals deep within the chest cavity. Throw in shots at an angle, and thick clothing, and you can see why 12" of penetration is the minimum. __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry Last edited by 10thmtn; July 8th, 2009 at 04:09 PM..

July 8th, 2009, 03:04 PM	#5
Janq VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,536	I'm shocked to see this ammo as being featured in a conventional magazine never mind the assertion as made by the author toward penetration of various metals and being compared to that of DPX and Golden Saber as _better_. I'd read the DoCGKR report a couple of years ago and there is another out there as well IIRC from either DoD or the US Army, I can't off hand recall which it was. Both reports thoroughly debunked the product, it's claims, and the heat sink theory as detailed too. But then oppositely at the same time there had been a report by a writer as then associated with Blackwater that indicated this stuff was the cats meow, similar to the above linked American Cop magazine article. - Janq __________________ "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

July 8th, 2009, 03:46 PM	#6
Tubby45 VIP Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Making suppressors Posts: 2,406	RBCD ammo is all hype and no performance. __________________ Freakshow Manufacturing LLC Ammunition- Retail, Wholesale, Law Enforcement

July 8th, 2009, 04:47 PM	#8
Janq VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,536	The fact that as reported the FL LE switched to this product is quite interesting, as against the results featured in the govt. report (DoD or Army) that I'd read which pretty much matched directly with the findings as featured in DoCDKR's posting. Possibly this is a new and wholly different product than what was tested two years ago, although the statements and reflections in this article very closely mirror that of the Blackwater person from same time frame. It's very odd and again I'm stunned to see this manufacturer/product pop back up as a reported item. - Janq __________________ "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

July 8th, 2009, 02:07 PM	#2
shooterX Distinguished Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,573	Thanks for the post. I have some of this ammunition, in .40 s&w, .357 magnum, and .38 special. The first two or three rounds in my EDC's are RBCD, followed by a Federal Hydro-shok, or the Nyclads for my .38 special.

July 8th, 2009, 02:31 PM	#3
Knuckledrager Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: PA Posts: 692	Both Doc Roberts and DoD have raised the BS flag about the claims of LeMas ammo. Their reports, which are available to LE agencies and .mil organizations list the break down of the testing and results. I would not use the stuff. __________________ "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

July 8th, 2009, 04:55 PM	#9
Blackeagle Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 1,997	Reading the American Cop article, one thing that seems odd is the author's emphasis on the lethality of the round. He even quotes a surgeon on how difficult it would be to treat a wound from one of these bullets. Frankly, lethality isn't very relevant to self defense. I don't really care if the assailant dies on the operating table hours after I shoot him. I care if he stops trying to kill me right this second.

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