Thoughts on LE only ammo?

punk rocka · August 3rd, 2009, 11:34 AM

I am about ready to look for a new carry round for my CC weapon. I still carry Black Talons at this point, but I am finally starting to run low on it. Every once in a while I will fire off a round of it just to make sure it's still working, but it is now getting to an age where I think it's best to retire it and start carrying something fresh.

So here's my question... What are your thoughts on carrying LE rounds for self defense? Are you asking for additional legal troubles by not just sticking with a more common off the shelf type? When I purchased all my Black Talon ammo, it was legal to buy anywhere so even after they pulled it I assumed that if I ever got into a self defense situation, while it might cause a little extra trouble in a trial situation, it ultimately shouldn't have too much of an effect since it was purchased 'off a shelf'. I am not sure how the LE ammo like Winchester Ranger or others might play out since it is all supposed to be sold/used in the LE community only.

GunnyBunny · August 3rd, 2009, 11:39 AM

The instructor at my first CC seminar recommended LE ammo. He said it was easier to justify using it rather than more "exotic" ammo.

Mr. Habib · August 3rd, 2009, 12:18 PM

It is not illegal to own 'LE only' ammo in most places. It is only a policy of the ammo company. I think they are trying to avoid the bad press Winchester got from the Black Talon. Some here will say that carrying what the local LEOs carry will look good in court, it's harder for the DA to say that you were carrying some evil death ray round. I don't know if there is any evidence to support idea that or not. Personally, I carry what functions, is accurate, and has proven terminal ballistics. Right now, for me, that means Federal HST, which btw is an LE only round. Hope that helps.

ghost tracker · August 3rd, 2009, 12:42 PM

There's more good SD ammo available to civilians right now than at any other time in history. "LE Only" has been used as a marketing tool by ammo manufacturers but seldom has any legal teeth. But with so many excellent options available without any potential highlights...why bother?

Rexster · August 3rd, 2009, 01:24 PM

These days, the main difference between much "LE only" ammo, and that available to everyone, is the packaging and the pricing structure. For example, Speer Gold Dots packaged for LE consumption are packaged in 50-round boxes. If I understand correctly, LE ammo is not subject to the 11% federal excise tax built into the cost of sporting ammunition, and that, plus the quantity packaging, makes the per-round cost of LE ammo considerably less.

The price disparity seems to have caused many authorized LE distributors to ration the ammo they sell to individual officers, to keep them from flipping the ammo at gun shows and in other private deals.

Tubby45 · August 3rd, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexster

For example, Speer Gold Dots packaged for LE consumption are packaged in 50-round boxes. If I understand correctly, LE ammo is not subject to the 11% federal excise tax built into the cost of sporting ammunition, and that, plus the quantity packaging, makes the per-round cost of LE ammo considerably less.

True to an extent. Non-federal LE is exempt (federal LE is not) from Federal Excise Tax on ammunition. However, to get the exemption, the manufacturer must deliver direct to the LE agency, not through a third party like a wholesaler or dealer. Once Speer LE line is sold to a non-LE entity, the manufacturer is liable for the FET on that ammunition.

The ammunition my company loads and sells to LE directly is lower in cost partly because of the lack of FET.

LM2024 · August 3rd, 2009, 05:07 PM

My department carries/issues Remington Golden Saber Bonded HPJ. Supposedly, it's only sold to LE.

RemingtonMilitary.com

The closest thing I can find in stores is the Remington Golden Sabers HPJ. I have no idea what the difference is between bonded and not bonded.

Tubby45 · August 3rd, 2009, 05:28 PM

Think of bonded as welded. The core and jacket become one, joined, in unison, etc as opposed to traditional cup and core seating of core into jacket where only minimal pressure is holding them together. Bonded is said to resist core/jacket separation experienced with some bullet designs when fired into hard mediums and/or at ultra high velocity.

Tom357 · August 3rd, 2009, 06:07 PM

Ranger T, and Gold Dot are both available off-the-shelf, here. I choose my self-defense ammo based on performance, and I don't worry about what some hypothetical prosecutor might say at some point in the future. I'll deal with that when it becomes a reality. In the meantime, I use the best ammo for the job, available to me off-the-shelf.

Darkwater · August 3rd, 2009, 07:22 PM

Good performance and cost are what count! I use Dr. Roberts review of self defense ammo as a starting point.

August 3rd, 2009, 11:34 AM	#1
punk rocka Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kansas City Posts: 126	Thoughts on LE only ammo? I am about ready to look for a new carry round for my CC weapon. I still carry Black Talons at this point, but I am finally starting to run low on it. Every once in a while I will fire off a round of it just to make sure it's still working, but it is now getting to an age where I think it's best to retire it and start carrying something fresh. So here's my question... What are your thoughts on carrying LE rounds for self defense? Are you asking for additional legal troubles by not just sticking with a more common off the shelf type? When I purchased all my Black Talon ammo, it was legal to buy anywhere so even after they pulled it I assumed that if I ever got into a self defense situation, while it might cause a little extra trouble in a trial situation, it ultimately shouldn't have too much of an effect since it was purchased 'off a shelf'. I am not sure how the LE ammo like Winchester Ranger or others might play out since it is all supposed to be sold/used in the LE community only.

August 3rd, 2009, 11:39 AM	#2
GunnyBunny VIP Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Victoria, B.C. Posts: 2,129	The instructor at my first CC seminar recommended LE ammo. He said it was easier to justify using it rather than more "exotic" ammo. __________________ CCW permit holder for Utah, Pennsylvannia, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

August 3rd, 2009, 12:42 PM	#4
ghost tracker Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ky Backwoods Posts: 1,154	There's more good SD ammo available to civilians right now than at any other time in history. "LE Only" has been used as a marketing tool by ammo manufacturers but seldom has any legal teeth. But with so many excellent options available without any potential highlights...why bother? __________________ There are only *TWO* kinds of people in this world; those that describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

August 3rd, 2009, 01:24 PM	#5
Rexster Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: SE Texas Posts: 895	These days, the main difference between much "LE only" ammo, and that available to everyone, is the packaging and the pricing structure. For example, Speer Gold Dots packaged for LE consumption are packaged in 50-round boxes. If I understand correctly, LE ammo is not subject to the 11% federal excise tax built into the cost of sporting ammunition, and that, plus the quantity packaging, makes the per-round cost of LE ammo considerably less. The price disparity seems to have caused many authorized LE distributors to ration the ammo they sell to individual officers, to keep them from flipping the ammo at gun shows and in other private deals. Last edited by Rexster; August 3rd, 2009 at 01:25 PM.. Reason: clarification

August 3rd, 2009, 05:28 PM	#8
Tubby45 VIP Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Making suppressors Posts: 2,406	Think of bonded as welded. The core and jacket become one, joined, in unison, etc as opposed to traditional cup and core seating of core into jacket where only minimal pressure is holding them together. Bonded is said to resist core/jacket separation experienced with some bullet designs when fired into hard mediums and/or at ultra high velocity. __________________ Freakshow Manufacturing LLC Ammunition- Retail, Wholesale, Law Enforcement

August 3rd, 2009, 12:18 PM	#3
Mr. Habib Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Indiana Posts: 35	It is not illegal to own 'LE only' ammo in most places. It is only a policy of the ammo company. I think they are trying to avoid the bad press Winchester got from the Black Talon. Some here will say that carrying what the local LEOs carry will look good in court, it's harder for the DA to say that you were carrying some evil death ray round. I don't know if there is any evidence to support idea that or not. Personally, I carry what functions, is accurate, and has proven terminal ballistics. Right now, for me, that means Federal HST, which btw is an LE only round. Hope that helps.

August 3rd, 2009, 05:07 PM	#7
LM2024 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nebraska Posts: 204	My department carries/issues Remington Golden Saber Bonded HPJ. Supposedly, it's only sold to LE. RemingtonMilitary.com The closest thing I can find in stores is the Remington Golden Sabers HPJ. I have no idea what the difference is between bonded and not bonded.

August 3rd, 2009, 06:07 PM	#9
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 871	Ranger T, and Gold Dot are both available off-the-shelf, here. I choose my self-defense ammo based on performance, and I don't worry about what some hypothetical prosecutor might say at some point in the future. I'll deal with that when it becomes a reality. In the meantime, I use the best ammo for the job, available to me off-the-shelf. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

August 3rd, 2009, 07:22 PM	#10
Darkwater Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 79	Good performance and cost are what count! I use Dr. Roberts review of self defense ammo as a starting point.

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