jtmoose

So, I've been reading these posts for a while regarding the "caliber wars" and "best ammo for X caliber". Lets think about it backwards. Would you be willing to get shot with a .380 or 9mm but not the .45 or .357 mag? Would you be willing to get shot with a 125gr JHP vs a 158gr FMJ? I'm not willing to get shot with any of them for the same reason, "placed center mass or in the head will make me dead!" Should we all focus our energy on developing drills/exercises to make us faster at putting shots in the kill zone or am I looking at this wrong; will the ammo/caliber I choose dramatically effect my ability to defend myself and family?

P.S. Before starting a new thread in the training discussions, can we make/merge a thread of drills to try? I searched but they seem to be one here, one there type. One drill for example that has helped me a lot is the "Ball & Dummy Drill". Thanks.

ghost tracker

Ask experts (not me!) & they'll tell you; 9mm or larger, any mainstream LE approved ammo will do, practice, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. (Oh, and there's no such thing as too much high-end Professional Instruction!)

__________________
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those that describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

retsupt99

It's not what you throw at 'em, it's where you hit 'em.
Just ask David (of David and Goliath)...

__________________
"That I cannot do."

"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."


***********************************

NRA Life Member

Xader

Well, this issue has been weighing on me lately.

I've been considering carrying FMJs in my 1911, at least for a while. This is due to the fact that I dont even have enough JHPs to fill two mags, and all of them are starting to show evidence of setback from chambering. This is an issue because I cant get my hands on any of the only JHP I've found to feed 100% reliably in my gun.

OTOH, ball ammo is relatively inexpensive, will feed reliably, and most importantly is available

__________________
"Life is an excellent teacher; unfortunately, it kills all of its students."

David in FL

Well, I wouldn't be willing to be shot with a pellet gun or a slingshot either.......but that doesn't mean that either one is necessarily the best option in a defensive weapon!

There's no doubt that shot placement trumps everything else, but focusing "all our energy" on training, while ignoring the very real differences in equipment options that are available strikes me as just as inadvisable as simply strapping on the biggest/baddest gun you can find and calling it a day without giving any thought to training and practice.

At the end of the day, we need to be well practiced with a weapon system that meets our own individual needs, whatever those needs might be.

__________________
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

10thmtn

From his latest newsletter. While I don't agree with him on everything, I think he is on the money here...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I get asked what I carry alot. Recently we have gotten into quite a few discussions about my choice of calibers as well as why. Specially when they hear that it is a 9mm. So here goes --

1). 9mm holds more ammo and more ammo is a definite asset in a gunfight. I had a student that was attacked by three guys and his 1911 barely had enough. Another bad guy and he would have been screwed.

2). With modern ammo there is virtually no difference in performance in the typical CCW loads (9mm, 40, 45).

3). Ammo commonality and magazine commonality are a big issue. If you carry a 50 Auto +P+ and your dainty wife carries a mere 9mm you cannot support each other in the way that would be best.

4). Anyone who believes in the reliability of One Shot Stops with a pistol is an idiot that has never seen any action outside his daydreams.

Look gents, if it makes you feel better to carry a 45, do it. If you think that extra millimeter of size will help, then carry a 45. If you think you'd feel just fine at Mumbai with your 1911/45, then cool. Drive on. Its not my business to convice you otherwise.

Me? I have seen lots of people shot to be able to say this.

ALL HANDGUN CALIBERS ARE UNPREDICTABLE.

I have seen guys get shot with just about everything and nothing will work every time. I know of a guy shot in the chest with a shotgun slug and who not only survived but kept fighting. The ONLY sure way, outside of a clean brain shot, and that is still in question, is to multiply the damage. How do we do that? by lots and lots of holes....hopefully in chest and face.

One of my contacts in South America has a score of 47...many of those with a Glock 17 with Military FMJ. He prevailed by being generous with his trigger and accurate in his shooting. Good enough for me. For me, its a 9mm Glock 17 with alot of Corbon DPX rounds.

Modern Technique schools created a cult of the 1911/45 and believe that it would work 19 times out of 20. Yet, Fairbairn, a man who was operational in the same general era as Cooper, states that one man he knew emptied his 45 into a thug whom he had to club into unconsciousness with the empty pistol after he kept fighting. So much for legendary stopping power.

That is not to say the 45 is worthless, as it is certainly not. If I was limited by foolish laws to 10 rounds or less, or to FMJ ammo, I might opt for such a pistol, but I think the lack of capacity is a serious limitation.

I investigated an attempted suicide once where a man shot himself in the head with a 1911. He lived and walked out of the ER. What does that prove? Nothing other than the 1911/45 is NOT the death ray excalibur its cultists would have us all assume.

I was also present in an entry where a drug dealer was kiled with one shot from a Sig P226/9mm +P+ 115 gr JHP. The man fell before the Point Man could hit him again. What does that prove? That the 9mm is not the POS, or the "45 set on stun" MT people like to call it.

For perspective I also saw several gang killings with 22 pistols. No lack of stopping power there.

In my educated and experienced opinion, ALL handgun calibers will do about the same things in flesh. I have had ER docs tell me directly that it is impossible to tell what caliber a bullet is in the ER by the damage it does. We have info of the same things happening with just about every caliber out there. Chuck Taylor told me once of a Viet Cong who got his entire shoulder blown off by a 50 BMG that kept charging until he bled out. So again IMHO, the arguement of the Power Of The Pistol is simply a silly idea.

We carry them for convenience and not for power. The secret to dropping the adversary is not the caliber, it is the volume and the placement. Period.

So carry the biggest weapon you can control. That does not mean caliber. It means weapon size. And that includes capacity. For some guys with big hands it may mean a Glock 21, or a double stack Para Ordnance. For me, both of those pistols have an umanageable girth. I cannot shoot them as well as a Glock 17/22. If those who advocate them can, then I support their choice 100%.

I have a friend named Pierre. he is a big man with big hands and can shoot a Desert Eagle as well as I can my Glock 17. It would be foolish for me to force him to carry a Glock 17 and equally so for him to tell me that only his D.E. was suitable for combat.

Choose based on shootability - ignore the caliber...can you manage the weapon's size in your hand, in daily carry? Then choose on capacity. More ammo is more better. You will NOT be dropping one man with one shot. It will be taking more. One man, no big deal. Two men, maybe not a big deal. Three men and your seven shots begin looking bad. Four men and you will be forced to reload. But not with a high capacity weapon. Caliber is the last consideration to me.

Anything in 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 45 ACP, 38 Sp. will work about the same. So CHOOSE WHAT YOU LIKE. As I said, mine is a Glock 17 with three magazines of Corbon DPX (and a couple of happy sticks thrown in).
__________________

Gabe Suarez

One Source Tactical
Suarez International USA

__________________
The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms.
Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993
NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer
Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

Tom357

Oh, let's not look at it backwards. Before you can practice "putting shots in the kill zone" rapidly and accurately, you have to choose a weapon. When you choose a weapon you have to choose a caliber. To shoot the weapon, you have to choose ammo. If you are wise, you want to choose the best ammo for the job. The choice of weapon, caliber and ammo impact your ability to shoot accurately. So, spending effort on the selection of weapon, caliber and ammo that you can shoot accurately and that is effective for the stated purpose is effort well spent, as far as I am concerned. Once you have accomplished that, then you can train to place your shots on target rapidly and accurately, with the ammo you intend to use.

While it is true that the choice of ammo and caliber are irrelevant without accurate shot placement, I don't think anyone here has ever said that accurate shot placement is irrelevant if one chooses the right caliber and ammo. What is true is that accurate shot placement is unachievable if you cannot handle the weapon. Self-defense with a firearm is unachievable without effective ammunition.

No, discussions of ammo and caliber are not a waste of time and effort. They are part of a much bigger and complex subject.

__________________
- Tom
You have the power to donate life.

highvoltage

This is probably the most poignant sentence in the article.

__________________
Three Glocks , Three Rugers, Assorted other stuff
NRA Endowment Member
Yes, a gun is a weapon. But the danger comes from the mind attached to the trigger finger.
Caliber doesn't matter if you can't hit your target.

10thmtn

Indeed. I look at it like this:

1. Bullet placement

2. Penetration to the vitals

3. Volume of fire

I choose 9mm because I can control the recoil better than other calibers, which means better shot placement and more rapid delivery of follow-up shots. It penetrates more than the minimum needed, and allows for more ammo capacity in a given sized handgun. Works for me.

__________________
The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms.
Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993
NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer
Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

TheShadow

Intersting Massad vid on Ammunition & Ballistics


Massad Ayoob: "Follow the old rule... The most powerful weapon you can control in accurate rapid fire at multipul targets. Keep shooting until the subject is down and can no longer harm you... and we'll discuss it with the jury later."

__________________
If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to.
This is the last stand on Earth -Ronald Reagan