Why the Nine! - Page 5

10thmtn · September 11th, 2009, 05:57 PM

So, I figured I'd put together a grid of sorts, showing the "winner" in various categories. You can apply your own "weight" to each criteria, and decide the overall "winner" for yourself:

Penetration in flesh - .45 (due to more momentum)

Barrier penetration - 9mm (due to kinetic energy/velocity and smaller cross-section)

Ammo capacity - 9mm (all else being equal)

Low Recoil - 9mm (less moment of inertia than .45)

Speed of follow up shots - 9mm (related to above)

Per-shot size of permanent wound cavity - .45

Cost of ammo - 9mm

Worldwide availability - 9mm

Marvin Knox · September 12th, 2009, 01:01 AM

If I had to shoot a hopped up perp and I got my choice of caliber it would be 50 caliber or even a howitzer if I knew exactly the situation that was coming.

I'd rather hit him with a .45 than a 9mm.

I'd rather have 14 .45's than 7 rounds.

I'd rather have bigger and more any day if I could conceal it for carry which is where I am concerned usually.

At home, the choice is a no brainer. Bigger is better.

But most things having to do with self defense, particularly concerning concealed carry, are a compromise of sorts.

Many experts the world over would say that the 9mm is the perfect compromise when it comes to handguns..

I think I agree!

The 9mm is the most popular round in the world and for good reason. With proper bullets it will kill just fine if you hit where it counts. The gun can be lighter and more compact than larger calibers in most case. The 9mm can carry more rounds in the handle and still offer a good grip than larger rounds.

It has mild recoil and is easily managable. Most people can shoot it well.

The 9mm is number one for a bunch of reasons. All of them are well thought out and well proven. Gabe has reasoned through many of them and made his choice.

It's a wise choice IMO.

Still - having said that - there is no doubt in my military mind that Gabe Suarez would choose a .45 caliber bullet over a 9mm bullet if he only had one round to hit the bad guy with.

If he says different - he just isn't thinking clearly.

ErikGr7 · September 12th, 2009, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miggy

9mm v. .45?

We have BINGO!

That was hilarious

I got two now.. 9mm vs. 45 and Hi Point Sucks..lol

homepcmd · September 19th, 2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin Knox

:
...
Still - having said that - there is no doubt in my military mind that Gabe Suarez would choose a .45 caliber bullet over a 9mm bullet if he only had one round to hit the bad guy with.

If he says different - he just isn't thinking clearly.

An unrealistic point - but true.

His whole point was... you do not want to get caught with having only one round... because then it does not matter.

You did a "one-stop" hit...

But his buddy shot you full of lead and now you are as dead as the first guy.

oneshot · September 19th, 2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndsupporter

If capacity is the name of the game, then I would think my XD45 is on the right track with 13+1.

I can see his point and agree with alot of what he is saying. I think until you hit and sever that pumping station (Ted Nudgents words) you run the risk of shooting a BG on PCP or some other drug ( or just pure rage)and not stopping them in time.

So shot placement is got to be the most important thing to consider in the moment of a deadly confrontation. That being said, do you really have time to aim, or do you shoot in the general direction and hope for the best.

This is where trainning plays the most important part; how well can you draw aim and shoot and if need be how well can you draw and shoot from the hip!

All questions that will certinly affect us differently God forbid that situation should ever occur!

Well said,
Especially the last sentence

WASHINGTON DID’NT USE HIS RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH TO DEFEAT THE BRITISH, HE SHOT THEM

"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

agentmel · September 23rd, 2009, 12:34 AM

For what it's worth (which is probably not much):

9mm (.35 cal) x 15+1 = 5.66 cal
.45 x 7 + 1 = 3.6 cal

So, all things being equal, a 15+1 9mm will create 2 full inches greater blood loss, which is 57% larger total hole area in someone than a 7+1 .45. In fact, 4 9mm will create a larger total area of holes (1.4) than 3 .45 will (1.35).

I fully expect that the above mathematical analysis will completely convince everyone on this forum to abandon the 1911 and buy a 9mm Glock. Except for those of us who were smart enough to buy a 9mm Glock in the first place.

Mel

10thmtn · September 23rd, 2009, 04:10 PM

Actually, I think this math is incorrect. The area of a circle is given by pi (~3.14) times the radius, squared - if I recall my math from waaaay back!

So, seven .45 (11.5mm) bullets give you a total of ~728 sq mm of tissue damage.

Fifteen 9mm bullets give you a total of ~ 960 sq mm of tissue damage.

This assumes unexpanded bullets, of course.

Per bullet, the .45 wins. Total damage caused by a full magazine, 9mm wins most of the time - unless you can conceal carry a full-size double stack .45.

What does all this prove? Not much. I'm sure there will be times when you would be better off with a .45 (when you can only get 1-2 shots into the BG). There will be times when you are better off with a 9mm (multiple attackers, need for faster follow-up shots, etc). Unfortunately, we can't know ahead of time whether to carry our .45 or our 9mm!

Pick one, practice, and be happy!

Or, if you can't decide, get a .40 or a 10mm and split the difference!

Nova · September 23rd, 2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10thmtn

So, seven .45 (11.5mm) bullets give you a total of ~728 sq mm of tissue damage.

Fifteen 9mm bullets give you a total of ~ 960 sq mm of tissue damage.

Not if you're very accurate and hit the same hole each time!

10thmtn · September 23rd, 2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nova

Not if you're very accurate and hit the same hole each time!

Ha ha!

Actually, this is why I stopped "target" shooting - trying for the mythical one-hole shot group. "Target shooting" accuracy and "combat accuracy" are very different things - you get more damage spreading your shots around, than shooting into the same area.

Close up, I practice the "zipper." A bit more distance, and it's the "Mozambique drill."

Beans · September 23rd, 2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nova

Not if you're very accurate and hit the same hole each time!

Quote:

Actually, this is why I stopped "target" shooting - trying for the mythical one-hole shot group. "Target shooting" accuracy and "combat accuracy" are very different things - you get more damage spreading your shots around, than shooting into the same area.

I want to believe, I want to believe , Yes I want to believe

Where is Agent Maulder??

September 11th, 2009, 05:57 PM	#41
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 666	So, I figured I'd put together a grid of sorts, showing the "winner" in various categories. You can apply your own "weight" to each criteria, and decide the overall "winner" for yourself: Penetration in flesh - .45 (due to more momentum) Barrier penetration - 9mm (due to kinetic energy/velocity and smaller cross-section) Ammo capacity - 9mm (all else being equal) Low Recoil - 9mm (less moment of inertia than .45) Speed of follow up shots - 9mm (related to above) Per-shot size of permanent wound cavity - .45 Cost of ammo - 9mm Worldwide availability - 9mm __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

September 23rd, 2009, 12:34 AM	#46
agentmel Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: FL Posts: 475	For what it's worth (which is probably not much): 9mm (.35 cal) x 15+1 = 5.66 cal .45 x 7 + 1 = 3.6 cal So, all things being equal, a 15+1 9mm will create 2 full inches greater blood loss, which is 57% larger total hole area in someone than a 7+1 .45. In fact, 4 9mm will create a larger total area of holes (1.4) than 3 .45 will (1.35). I fully expect that the above mathematical analysis will completely convince everyone on this forum to abandon the 1911 and buy a 9mm Glock. Except for those of us who were smart enough to buy a 9mm Glock in the first place. Mel __________________ The Ethics of Liberty LewRockwell.com The Survival Podcast How long have we watered the Tree of Deceit with the blood of patriots?

September 23rd, 2009, 04:10 PM	#47
10thmtn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Posts: 666	Actually, I think this math is incorrect. The area of a circle is given by pi (~3.14) times the radius, squared - if I recall my math from waaaay back! So, seven .45 (11.5mm) bullets give you a total of ~728 sq mm of tissue damage. Fifteen 9mm bullets give you a total of ~ 960 sq mm of tissue damage. This assumes unexpanded bullets, of course. Per bullet, the .45 wins. Total damage caused by a full magazine, 9mm wins most of the time - unless you can conceal carry a full-size double stack .45. What does all this prove? Not much. I'm sure there will be times when you would be better off with a .45 (when you can only get 1-2 shots into the BG). There will be times when you are better off with a 9mm (multiple attackers, need for faster follow-up shots, etc). Unfortunately, we can't know ahead of time whether to carry our .45 or our 9mm! Pick one, practice, and be happy! Or, if you can't decide, get a .40 or a 10mm and split the difference! __________________ The People ARE the Militia, and have a DUTY (not just a right) to be both armed and proficient in the use of said arms. Ex-Army officer; Hurricane Andrew Relief, FL, 1992; Operation Restore Hope, Somalia, 1993 NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer Glock 26, CT Laserguard, Smartcarry

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September 12th, 2009, 01:01 AM	#42
Marvin Knox Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: seattle, washington Posts: 222	If I had to shoot a hopped up perp and I got my choice of caliber it would be 50 caliber or even a howitzer if I knew exactly the situation that was coming. I'd rather hit him with a .45 than a 9mm. I'd rather have 14 .45's than 7 rounds. I'd rather have bigger and more any day if I could conceal it for carry which is where I am concerned usually. At home, the choice is a no brainer. Bigger is better. But most things having to do with self defense, particularly concerning concealed carry, are a compromise of sorts. Many experts the world over would say that the 9mm is the perfect compromise when it comes to handguns.. I think I agree! The 9mm is the most popular round in the world and for good reason. With proper bullets it will kill just fine if you hit where it counts. The gun can be lighter and more compact than larger calibers in most case. The 9mm can carry more rounds in the handle and still offer a good grip than larger rounds. It has mild recoil and is easily managable. Most people can shoot it well. The 9mm is number one for a bunch of reasons. All of them are well thought out and well proven. Gabe has reasoned through many of them and made his choice. It's a wise choice IMO. Still - having said that - there is no doubt in my military mind that Gabe Suarez would choose a .45 caliber bullet over a 9mm bullet if he only had one round to hit the bad guy with. If he says different - he just isn't thinking clearly.