Range Asked Me to Leave My Wolf Ammo at the Counter - Page 4

BigBear · October 6th, 2009, 11:43 AM

It's not about the ammo shortage at my range, because they have had the rule posted since way before there was a shortage. I don't shoot wolf, so i am not bothered personally, but I hate it for those who do. It is their range, and as such don't owe me any explanation. I can choose to shoot there or not.

Random · October 6th, 2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmizzi

Funny. The indoor range I visit on a weekly basis just started pulling this exact same crap in the past few weeks. No "Russian Made" Wolf or Bear. Same BS excuse provided.

The range I've been going to also prohibits Wolf. I inquired after seeing this thread, and was told basically the same thing - it has a steel core and the backstop is steel.

It appears that it doesn't actually have a steel CORE, but they are steel jacketed. Wikipedia says "The steel is said to be more likely to ricochet, and also to cause sparks on impact, which can be a problem when shooting in dry grassland, or forest areas. In addition, a large majority of pistol ranges will not allow shooters to use Wolf, or other Russian ammunition types because of the steel jacket components on many of their products. The reason cited for this is because they claim it damages the backstops."

Personally, I've never used Wolf ammo. As far as the range goes - it's their rules. If I don't like it, I'll find another range. Since I can get other ammo just as cheap, it doesn't bother me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmdrdredd

I have another theory...these ammo brands are easy to find in quantity and not very expensive. They can tell you don't use it and make you buy their overpriced ammo instead.

The range I use doesn't make you buy their ammo - just doesn't want Wolf.

Randy · October 6th, 2009, 12:09 PM

Combine the unburned powder with all of the paper debris from shot-up targets (think of a broom, sweeping everything into a pile up next to the backstop) and you have quite a source of fuel. It happened to me while shooting CCI Blazer (9mm) ammo. I suspect a hot piece of a jacket bounced and landed in the powder/paper mixture.

The claim that wolf ammo leaves more unburned powder on the floor than other brands is most likely unfounded. It is more probable than not that this is an "excuse" rather than a "reason."

Randy

SIXTO · October 6th, 2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy

The claim that wolf ammo leaves more unburned powder on the floor than other brands is most likely unfounded. It is more probable than not that this is an "excuse" rather than a "reason."

Randy

I dont know if Wolf leaves anymore unburnt powder or not, but it doesnt matter anyway. There is plenty there with or without Wolfs addition. I'd bet its more of a misunderstanding than an excuse... but who knows, wolf might use a slower burning powder. I just dont know if they do or not.

I do know that if you watch a pistol shoot Wolf (or any comblok ammo) next to one shooting domestic, the Wolf does create a lot more sparks, (not muzzle blast, but sparks) some of which reach the floor. Maybe its the steel jacket causing this, maybe its the powder... I dont know.

C hawk Glock · October 6th, 2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Some points were hit on, others are missed completely. I have had the experience of managing one of the busiest indoor ranges in the country for a number of years. Here is the scoop;

Ranges typically do not sort their brass. It is time consuming and not profitable for them to do so. They do collect it (sweep it up) and sell it by the pound to companies like UltraMax to be reloaded. Ultramax will give the range a per pound price based on the quality of the product they typically receive from the range. Steal cases equal bad weight and less money.

Second, there is a lot of unburnt powder left on the range floors. Its just a fact of the range. All ammunition leaves some, especially in pistols. Just look at all that greenish debris on the range floor just forward of the firing line; thats unburnt powder. Now, imagine a steel core bullet impacting a steel back stop at a 45 degree angle. What do you think that is going to create? Sparks. Now, I already know what somebody is going to try to argue about on this; go ahead... I'm ready.

Third; On top of the backstop that you see from the firing line is a component that most people have no idea exists. Its called a spin chamber. What happens is, the bullet impacts the steel backstop, travels upward into the spin chamber, spins until it loses most of its momentum, and drops down into the lead collection system. Again, steel on steel wears the spin chambers a lot quicker than lead on steel. Wear a hole in a spin chamber at it shuts down the range. And you are lucky if that is all that happens.
Spin chambers ain't cheap guys.

We have had several members from across the country chime in and say their range says the same thing... and it must be BS?
Do you guys honestly think that all the ranges across the country met in some secret meeting somewhere to discuss the demise of Russian ammo? Really? Thats just funny. Too funny actually.

Please, to suggest sneaking in or ignoring these range rules really put our ranges and our sport in a bad spot. These days ranges are closing left and right to to insurance costs and law suits... and you guys want to jeopardize a mans business and our places to shoot just so you can blast off a few boxes of crappy ammo? Way to look out for our cause. No wonder public ranges are dissappearing.

Thank you for the informative post SIXTO. I honestly learned some things about ranges that I did not know. Thanks.

Faitmaker · October 6th, 2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuda66

Huh.

I'm fascinated by a lot of the responses..."Haven't they heard of magnets" or "If they want to sell the brass, it's their problem"...what dreck.

Folks, it's their range, and their rules. If you don't like it, find another range. Or, if the next range you go to has a similar rule, build your own...

The pathetic whining of "I wanna be able to do whatever I want wherever I want" is getting old.

OP, this isn't directed at you...

I don't have a problem with it being their rule. (I don't shoot at my local commercial range because they don't allow reloads). I have a problem with their not being open enough to say "We don't allow it because we would have to seperate it" as opposed to lying about it. Don't lie to the customer. Ever.

I go to my state shooting range. It's outdoors and not as nice to shoot. It has all the distances you would want to shoot at as long as it's 25yd, 50yd, and 100yd.

Guns and more · October 6th, 2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuda66

It's because the range is selling the used brass to be reloaded.

Bingo!

SIXTO · October 6th, 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faitmaker

I don't have a problem with it being their rule. (I don't shoot at my local commercial range because they don't allow reloads). I have a problem with their not being open enough to say "We don't allow it because we would have to seperate it" as opposed to lying about it. Don't lie to the customer. Ever.

I go to my state shooting range. It's outdoors and not as nice to shoot. It has all the distances you would want to shoot at as long as it's 25yd, 50yd, and 100yd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guns and more

Bingo!

The steel cases are only part of the problem, not the problem.

Compared to the money made from brass, ranges would make far more money selling Wolf for use on the range or even allowing it to be brought in if it were not for the other issues I've outlined. Wolf and other cheap ammo has a much higher profit margin than the domestic brands when selling at a range.
Ranges make a little money off the brass, but it really isn't all that much considering the big picture. The profit margin on used brass really is not much at all. Most of the time, its done to get better deals on factory reloads, and simply too have a relatively hassle free place to dispose of all the brass.

Having a few steel cases mixed in with the good brass does not present much of a problem at all. Also, if it was an issue of sorting brass, they would not allow 22's either. Those are far more of a PIA to deal with than steel cases ever thought about being.
Those little buggers work their way into other cases, and into the workings of a sorter.

If brass is being sorted, it is done mechanically anyway; so this theory just doesnt hold much water. The only merit to it is, that the factory reload companies will pay a few cents more on the pound if they know that you have little to no steel cases in your brass.

MinistrMalic · October 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM

Wouldn't it be acceptable for the range to say "because we say so" to this whole question? It's their business! Shoot according to their rules or go elsewhere IMAO.

I suppose my opinion is based at least in part on the fact that I don't shoot Wolf, but I just don't see the issue. Okay, so you don't like their reasoning. Maybe you can bring it up as a topic of polite discussion with management if they have the inclination to discuss it. We have 3 public ranges in the north Phoenix area (Shooter's World, Scottsdale Gun Club, and Ben Avery are the ones I have in mind), and all three have slightly different rules. If you want to shoot at any given range you have to abide by their desires and regulations.

And SIXTO, thanks for the 411 from the other side of the discussion.

chrise2004 · October 6th, 2009, 01:47 PM

hmm....i'm going to have to keep my eyes pealed when I go to my range I don't remember seeing any signs or anything like that at my range. Interesting...

October 6th, 2009, 11:43 AM	#31
BigBear Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: North Carolina Posts: 142	It's not about the ammo shortage at my range, because they have had the rule posted since way before there was a shortage. I don't shoot wolf, so i am not bothered personally, but I hate it for those who do. It is their range, and as such don't owe me any explanation. I can choose to shoot there or not. __________________ " In theory, reality and theory are the same. In reality, they are not." GLOCK G23, KAHR CW9, TAURUS PT92, TAURUS 689, MOSSY 500 NRA member

October 6th, 2009, 12:09 PM	#33
Randy Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Staunton, Va. Posts: 302	Combine the unburned powder with all of the paper debris from shot-up targets (think of a broom, sweeping everything into a pile up next to the backstop) and you have quite a source of fuel. It happened to me while shooting CCI Blazer (9mm) ammo. I suspect a hot piece of a jacket bounced and landed in the powder/paper mixture. The claim that wolf ammo leaves more unburned powder on the floor than other brands is most likely unfounded. It is more probable than not that this is an "excuse" rather than a "reason." Randy __________________ Defensive Training Concepts, Inc. Staunton, Va.

October 6th, 2009, 01:06 PM	#39
MinistrMalic Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 492	Wouldn't it be acceptable for the range to say "because we say so" to this whole question? It's their business! Shoot according to their rules or go elsewhere IMAO. I suppose my opinion is based at least in part on the fact that I don't shoot Wolf, but I just don't see the issue. Okay, so you don't like their reasoning. Maybe you can bring it up as a topic of polite discussion with management if they have the inclination to discuss it. We have 3 public ranges in the north Phoenix area (Shooter's World, Scottsdale Gun Club, and Ben Avery are the ones I have in mind), and all three have slightly different rules. If you want to shoot at any given range you have to abide by their desires and regulations. And SIXTO, thanks for the 411 from the other side of the discussion. __________________ "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36) Here is my blog if you're interested :)

October 6th, 2009, 01:47 PM	#40
chrise2004 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Southern IL Posts: 606	hmm....i'm going to have to keep my eyes pealed when I go to my range I don't remember seeing any signs or anything like that at my range. Interesting... __________________ Glock 27,Hi-Point .380, S&W 3913 NRA Member/Supporter "Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem." - President Ronald Reagan

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