Range Asked Me to Leave My Wolf Ammo at the Counter - Page 7

SIXTO · October 8th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT

A magnet will pick up a steel jacket, as well as a steel core.

But the fact remains that Wolf does not have a steel core. That’s the easiest way to tell it has a lead core. Look for the Wolf on the box. Invite them to call Wolf Performance Ammunition at (888) 757-WOLF (9653) if they don’t believe you.

Wolf might not import steel core anymore, but the most certainly did. A lot of it still is a "bi-metal". Russian (comblok) surplus ammo was almost all steel core from the cold war era. Rifle ammo in particular. Wolf got their start with surplus ammo, and there is plenty of it still out there. Wolf, BrownBear etc all came from the same sources. Wolf might have split from the rest since then, I dont know.
In fact, I think I have a box or two in my basement. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

Here is my source;

The New World of Russian Small Arms & Ammo, (Paladin Press, Boulder, Colorado: 1998)

And then there is the Chinese stuff....

Steel core or steel jacket, its of no matter for this topic. They both can damage the range.

It is still out there;

Interarms 9mm Steel Core : Pistol Ammo at GunBroker.com

7.62X39 STEEL CORE 150 RNDS NOS CHINESE RUSSIAN : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=142327296

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141264144

Faitmaker · October 8th, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBear

I can't agree completely with that.

"Lady, with feet that big, you should just buy 2 pair, throw the shoes away, and tie the boxes to your feet."

Ok. Maybe you don't have to be so ... open either.

JT · October 8th, 2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Wolf might not import steel core anymore, but the most certainly did. A lot of it still is a "bi-metal". Russian (comblok) surplus ammo was almost all steel core from the cold war era. Rifle ammo in particular. Wolf got their start with surplus ammo, and there is plenty of it still out there.

No, they did not import steel core under the Wolf name.

You missed my point. Steel core ammo, was never sold under the Wolf Brand. Yes, it came from the same place (Tula Cartridge Works), but they did not use the Wolf brand when they sold steel core. The Wolf Brand came into existance several years later. Hence, like I said, you can tell it’s not steel cored, by the Wolf on the box.

again, please check out...

http://home.comcast.net/~jfreeman16/ak_rifle_ammo.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Wolf, BrownBear etc all came from the same sources. Wolf might have split from the rest since then, I dont know.

Actually, they often came from different sources. Wolf was primarily Tula, with Wolf Classic coming from Ulynovsk. The Bear brands usually came from Barnaul, Ulyanovsk, or Klimovsk

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Here is my source;

The New World of Russian Small Arms & Ammo, (Paladin Press, Boulder, Colorado: 1998)

It's hard to discuss your source, since I don't have it in front of me. I would be glad to disucss any online source you can provide.

See my source above. It shows that steel core Russian was packaged in plain brown wrappers. They didn't even have the white Tula Cartridge Works boxes at that time, much less the Wolf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Steel core or steel jacket, its of no matter for this topic. They both can damage the range.

1. It is highly questionable whether or not steel jackets can damage the range, with their 1/32 inch jacket.

2. It certainly is of matter for this topic, because the range told the OP that the reason he could not use Wolf is because it has a steel core. They were either lying, or didn’t know what they were talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

It is still out there;

Interarms 9mm Steel Core : Pistol Ammo at GunBroker.com

7.62X39 STEEL CORE 150 RNDS NOS CHINESE RUSSIAN : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

5.45x39 Russian Ammo Steel Core 7N6 540rds 5.45 : Rifle Ammo at GunBroker.com

Ammo: Russian .223 FMC 55 gr Steel Case 500 Round : Rifle Ammo at GunBroker.com

I already acknowledged there was steel core out there. But none of those are steel core Wolf. They are..

1. Czech
2. Chinese – not Chinese/Russin like the ad said. Whatever the heck that is.
3. Russian Surplues – with steel and lead, much like the M855
4. Not steel cored. Steel cased.

BaserRonin · October 8th, 2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Yes, some of it does. Some of the comblok ammo has steel cores as well.

maybe, maybe not. A lot seem to want to error on the side of caution. Magnet checks may or may not work, I doubt a magnet would tell you if its a steel core or not, and if its a jacket, I doubt there is enough material for it to be obvious.
Thats just my theory though; I don't have any personal knowledge or facts to back that up.

A magnet will pick up either a steel core or a steel jacket. It is very unlikely the steel jacket will damage the range, but if they want to not allow steel at all, that will tell them 100% of the time that it either has a steel jacket or a steel core.

SIXTO · October 8th, 2009, 03:05 PM

The steel jacket does cause the sparks that will ignite the powder on the ground. Again, I've openly admitted the areas I have no knowledge of.

As for the "check it with a magnet" camp; You can't! It wont work to check the core.
here is why,
paraphrased from jt's linked site;

Quote:

Almost all commie surplus ammo uses bullets made with copper plated steel jackets, So using a magnet is useless because it will be sticking to the steel bullet jacket and not the steel core. The only way to tell if your ammo is steel core is to pull a bullet. Steel core bullets are over 1" long, have a boat tail, and have black sealer on them. In the pic the steel core bullet is on the left and the lead core on the right.

However, many ranges will not allow comblok ammo, wolf included, for a host of reasons that I have outlined. When most people think of commie surplus ammo, they think Wolf. Kinda like people think Kleenex when you are talking tissues.

...and Wolf still uses bimetal product in its ammo. its all russian, comblok ammo; hence the "it all comes from the same place" comment from me. I'm sure the USSR had more than one factory. While it might have come from different factorys in different regions of the USSR, the source is still the same.

Here is some interesting reading on the subject;

Also paraphrased from jt's linked site;

Quote:

Small quantities of Russian ammo was imported from other countries but was in small amounts intended for the cartridge collector market or mislabeled as to country of mfg. Until the fall of the Soviet Union all arms and ammo were banned from import to the US by law. A large amount of Russian steel core 7.62x39mm ammo was imported in late 1993/early 1994 but due to the BATF re-classifying 7.62x39mm steel core ammo as armor piercing ammo in February 1994. The import or sale of 7.62x39mm ammo with steel core bullets by FFL holders was banned to anyone one but military, law enforcement, or other govt. agencies. The re-classifying of steel core ammo put a stop to the import of Russian 7.62x39mm ammo till 1995 when a large amount of ammo was imported from Germany. In Germany stocks of former East German steel core ammo from Russia, Romania, and East Germany had the bullets pulled and lead core bullets seated in the cases so it could be imported to the USA. This ammo even though new bullets were used the cases still had the corrosive primers in them. So make sure to clean your rifle thoroughly. The banning of steel core ammo in February 1994 and the banning of all Chinese ammo imports in April 1994 resulted in the price of a case of 7.62x39mm going up to over 3 times the price it was before the 1994 ammo import bans. The import of the large quantity of the re-bulleted German ammo resulted in the price dropping from over $300 per case to a little under $200 a couple months after it was first imported. In 1997 imports of new production Russian 7.62x39mm ammo with lead core bullets started coming into the US and case prices started dropping. The first was packed in plain white boxes with black printing. In this pic the box is unfolded so all the printing can be seen but it is the standard style 20rd box that all 7.62x39mm Russian ammo comes in.

So, the steel core is out there. Wolf did import steel core in the early 90's.

In a nutshell, I thik JT and I are debating this from two different angles; JT is saying Wolf doesnt import steel core ammo. He is correct, they dont.

I'm saying that Wolf did, almost 20 years ago now. I'm also saying that other brands did, and sometimes still do import steel core ammo, despite the 94 ban. There is also plenty of ammo in personal collections that are steel core. Not everything brought to the range was recently imported or purchased. There is also far more to the range issue than the core, like I outlined in my first post in this thread.

JT · October 8th, 2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

Wolf did import steel core in the early 90's.
...

I'm saying that Wolf did, almost 20 years ago now.

Once again, no they did not. Nothing in that article says that there was ever any Wolf steel core ammo.

You are confusing Tula Cartridge Works, with Wolf Performance Ammunition. Ammo was not imported under the Wolf brand in the early 90’s. That is why I said that if it says "Wolf", it is not steel core. Regardless of how old it is.

SIXTO · October 8th, 2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT

Once again, no they did not. Nothing in that article says that there was ever any Wolf steel core ammo.

You are confusing Tula Cartridge Works, with Wolf Performance Ammunition. Ammo was not imported under the Wolf brand in the early 90’s. That is why I said that if it says "Wolf", it is not steel core. Regardless of how old it is.

What is Wolf performance now is not the same Wolf surplus ammo that was here all those years ago. I am assuming that Wolf split from the rest of the Russian surplus guys way back when. The Wolf I'm talking about came in cans and paper wrap much like the Chinese stuff does now. They didnt have boxes and graphics like they do now.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think you are right in what you are saying, however, we are arguing about two different subjects.

JT · October 8th, 2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

What is Wolf performance now is not the same Wolf surplus ammo that was here all those years ago. I am assuming that Wolf split from the rest of the Russian surplus guys way back when. The Wolf I'm talking about came in cans and paper wrap much like the Chinese stuff does now. They didnt have boxes and graphics like they do now.
Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think you are right in what you are saying, however, we are arguing about two different subjects.

But that was not Wolf. It was from Tula Cartridge Works (or other former state owned plants), but it was before Wolf existed. So if it says Wolf on the box, it is not steel core.

Latest update...

I just called Wolf Performance Ammo.

The Wolf brand name was first used approximately 10 years ago. So about 1999. Which would place it 5 years after the ban. Wolf confirmed that steel core ammo was never sold under the Wolf brand.

To my point, if the range is really concerned about it being steel core, the box with the Wolf tells them it is not. The brown paper wrappers may be, but they are not Wolf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

paper wrap much like the Chinese stuff does now.

To the best of my knowledge there's no Chinese coming in. There is Russian surplus.

cbp210 · October 9th, 2009, 01:43 AM

Hi Paula,
I live in Humble. What range told you this?

Faitmaker · October 9th, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT

But that was not Wolf. It was from Tula Cartridge Works (or other former state owned plants), but it was before Wolf existed. So if it says Wolf on the box, it is not steel core.

Latest update...

I just called Wolf Performance Ammo.

The Wolf brand name was first used approximately 10 years ago. So about 1999. Which would place it 5 years after the ban. Wolf confirmed that steel core ammo was never sold under the Wolf brand.

To my point, if the range is really concerned about it being steel core, the box with the Wolf tells them it is not. The brown paper wrappers may be, but they are not Wolf.

To the best of my knowledge there's no Chinese coming in. There is Russian surplus.

JT - Your knowledge of world cartridges is incredible. I'll only remember a .05 of what I just read on your link and it was very interesting. The bottom line still is it's their range. You and I know their reasons are ******** but it's still their range. You can always argue with them, with your dollars. Thanks for the cartridge lesson though. Some of it I already knew.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

October 9th, 2009, 01:43 AM	#69
cbp210 Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Humble, TX Posts: 131	Hi Paula, I live in Humble. What range told you this?