Tangle

I read the first reference - wow!

Now I read most of the second reference and it is even wower.

Anymouse

I just finished reading Grossman's book On Killing. Like Grossman, I am a virgin - I have never killed anyone, and I have not been in combat. I, too have read a lot of books and talked with a fair number of people. But I have not written a book about other folks' willingness or unwillingness to kill, since I can't even speak with authority about my own.

If you want to learn about the experience of sex, do not go to a priest. If you want to learn about the experience of killing, do not come to me or Dave Grossman.

grnzbra

...Grossman has answered his critics?

This was discussed on the website for professional LEO firearms intructors, of which Grossman is listed as a member. One would think that if a person believed in his message, he would want to answer criticism, and since it is a members (of the organization) only forum, one would think that answering would not be too much of a problem. If his message is correct, it is too important to be out there "under a cloud". Therefore, I have to conclude that it should be taken with a grain of salt.

That having been said, he has more to say than just "people don't really want to kill each other". For example, he says that murder rates over time are skewed by medical advances over time and to get a true measure of violence, one must look at the rate of agravated assault.

He seems to like to blame television for violence increases, and mentions a comparison of two Alaskan towns, one with and one without TV, and the violence that occurred some number of years after TV introduction (timed with the maturing of a generation)

It's just too bad that the message that everyone associates with him is so much in question that the whole thing becomes questionable.

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Basic Pistol

KC135

I first read the book several years ago, when Grossman gave me a copy.

Some of what he wrote is dead on IMO, but a lot is waaay off.

Remember too, he is not a combat veteran.

I think his research in regard to kids is valid.

The information concerning 'crew served weapons' meets with my experience.

The rest???

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tanksoldier

LTC Grossman based his work on research by SLA Marshal, it has largely been refuted... and SLA Marshal admited that he made up most of his research.

I can also tell you from firsthand experience that, with regard to US Soliers at least, getting them to shoot is not the problem... if anything we shoot too quickly and engage the target with too many rounds. Accuracy is also often iffy.

But willingness to pull the trigger is NOT an issue for the most part.

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"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

"Drive fast and eat cheese!"

grnzbra

In all fairness to Grossman, it should be pointed out that he says that we have overcome the problem of reluctance to killing through training. In fact, that is one of the reasons he gives for video games being a problem; the kids are being subjected to the same type of pro-killing indoctrination as the military without the discipline. (I got this from one of his more recent efforts, so, in all fairness to his critics, he may be changing his tune to make it fit)

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Basic Pistol

tanksoldier

US military training with regard to the warrior mindset is laughable.

Trust me, the military (the US Army portion anyway) is so PC it would make your head spin. We certainly aren't making any steely-eyed killers. We can barely get them to come to work with a proper haircut, shaved face, sober and on time.

Give me a troop who manages 3 out of 4, 95% of the time and I'm a happy NCO.

__________________
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

"Drive fast and eat cheese!"

grnzbra

Perhaps the lib politicians read Grossman's book.

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There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
Basic Pistol

Anymouse

Hmmm. How about prior service USN, 3 out of 4 100% of the time and full beard 100% of the time? Of course, I'd need an age waiver, and I'm not sure I could get a permission slip from my wife . . .

mouse

tanksoldier

I'll take a full beard over being stoned out of your mind or drunk off your @ss. You're hired. ;)

When I was ready to return to active duty after college I had the opportunity to go with the USMC instead of returning to the Army. I would have lost 1 paygrade and had to go thru bootcamp if I went with the Marines... oh well, everybody has regrets.

__________________
"I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

"Drive fast and eat cheese!"