New TV Show: The Best Defense (Merged X 2) - Page 7

paramedic70002 · February 23rd, 2009, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Pincus

As for "force on force", there are several ways to do "force on force"... and a big difference between Scenarios and Drills. Simply using sim guns (any type) and saying that the training is "reality based" doesn't cut it for me. For example, I don't believe that student-on-student scenarios are nearly as valuable as scenarios run with trained/prepped/scripted role players. 2 guys squaring off and waiting for a buzzer to see if "shooting and moving" makes sense is a game, not a scenario or even a drill... much less a premise for defensive tactics development. Choreography, anticipation and human behavior often combine to create self-fulfilling prophecies when you have student-on-student drills like that. Not to mention that the lack of actual recoil makes it significantly easier to make rapid follow up shots while moving.
I've done a lot of force on force and a lot of dynamic live fire in realistic settings (moving, reactive and interactive targets). I can assure you that there is a huge performance degradation when you both move fast enough to be significantly safer and shoot live fire.
(take a look at this video and the linked podcast for more on that: Shooting in Motion)

Rob,

Thanks for that analysis. I hadn't thought about that. I'm not an instructor and wouldn't know how to go about setting up this type of training, but I have been in my share of hairy situations.

One of the hot topics in EMS these days is research. Many of the sacred cows in EMS are being slaughtered, truths are being rewritten, and some people are uncomfortable with change. I really wish there were research projects that could define certain aspects of shootouts, but the few that I have read don't do service to the need.

I agree that getting off the X is important, and I understand there's a big difference in training philosophy between holding ground, doing a side step, and more dynamic action.

Are their after action studies that go into detail and disect the effectiveness of different training styles and actual performance other than anecdotal reports? I think scientific research studies would be a watershed for armed encounters, and your TBD team certainly have a banner to carry out such an endeavor.

Rob Pincus · February 24th, 2009, 12:13 AM

Para,

I agree with you. I like to do the research and see what "reality" says, then develop training theories and methodologies around it. The fact is that, like many situations, the situation is so dynamic and the variables are so many that you really can't do a truly scientific experiment that covers all the bases. The best you can do is isolate areas and test them (the Tueller Drill is a perfect example of isolating one thing (...maybe two..depending on how you look at it), the problem is that people get ahold of that one piece of data and try to paint with a really broad brush about a lot of related topics. I try to avoid that.
We have a lot of dash camera and other empirical data that says two things:
1. People will move in real situations.
2. People have low hit rates in real situations.
What we are generally trying to do (as explained in the podcast) is channel that initial human survival behavior that is eons old into "lateral movement" and train the process of stopping to shoot. The exception is based on proximity and speed of the attackers movement towards you (again, check out the podcast if you haven't already). S&P are prime motivators of the startle response in the first place, so the S.i.M. Drill assumes the natural overriding drive to move away from danger regardless of training one way or the other. The standard lateral movement (when shooting at beyond 2 arms reach) takes both #1 and #2 into account... directing/accepting #1 and trying to improve #2.

On a related note, the guys at the Salk Institute are doing cutting edge work on how the human eye/brain track moving objects. Their studies support the idea that a rapid lateral shift about a body width or two than planting and shooting is likely to cause more disruption over the course of 2-3 seconds than simply moving off in one direction (including a predictable arc). We've always said that the lateral shift before stopping to shoot was causing two interruptions for the bad guys OODA Loop, but the science is now backing that up with good clinical studies.

-RJP

HowardCohodas · February 24th, 2009, 05:31 AM

Mr. Pincus, thank you for your participation on the forum and in this thread. It greatly adds to the "teaching" benefit of the show to be able to ask questions of the teacher about what we have learned.

On another topic, you discussed in several posts your concerns regarding the benefits to be derived from the way most FOF training was conducted. In one of the many classes I have taken over the last year, (since my awakening) one of my instructors suggested two benefits you did not discuss. The first one mentioned was overcoming the emotional resistance that most of us have to pulling the trigger while aiming at another human being.

The second benefit involved giving the student a reality check on performance expectations during a SD event. He felt that getting stung by pellets induced the student to move to take cover and most importantly, degraded his performance in returning fire and ability to hit a target. He felt this reality check was an important part of developing a proper SD mindset.

I can't recall with certainty who the instructor was but it could have been Col. Grossman. I would appreciate your take on these perspectives.

Horseman04 · February 25th, 2009, 11:11 AM

Rob -

I am very new to handguns (and to this forum). I applied for my Texas CHL in mid January and am still waiting on it. I have been surfing the various DirectTV channels to look for anything to help me improve my skills. I found "The Best Defense" only 2 weeks ago. I have found it to be the best thing I have seen yet for personal defense. I am making my wife and daughter watch as well. It has taught us a great deal. As a professional curriculum developer (for a software company) I also recognize and appreciate well-designed educational material. You are doing a superb job with the "Why" and the "How" and I also really like your "Good", "Better", "Best" approach. The episode on the convenience store that stressed patience, movement, and lines of fire was outstanding. I also caught the episode that covered the issues around firing from within a car and using a car for cover. Lots of stuff I had never even thought about. A superb show! Thanks for your work and for the work of the entire team that produces it. One thing I am curious about. My daughter is 19 -- she will have to be 21 before she can carry legally in Texas. At the moment we have her armed with a Taser. Have you considered a show segment with non-firearms for defense such as tasers and pepper sprays for those who can't carry a gun? Another example -- I frequently have to travel to CA on business -- for some reason they don't appear to want anyone from Texas to carry there. And of course there are many locations in different states that prevent handguns but would allow other self-defense items. I have already seen some segments that included some hand-to-hand to break contact and get room to draw.

Rob Pincus · February 25th, 2009, 11:00 PM

Thanks Guys.

Howard,

I agree with those positives in a general sense. The first certainly sounds like something that Col. Grossman would say, as it is a central issue in his book "On Killing" and the research he conducted which led to the book. The second is a commonly cited positive, but I don't know if people really need much reinforcement in the area of movement during real events. My concern is that it is overemphasised as a benefit when compared to the Bravado with which some students behave when you are doing scenarios that DO NOT involve pellets. In other words, in real situations, we almost always see people react with appropriate concern and fear when faced with being shot (for example, I've NEVER seen a video of a real world counter ambush moment when someone went to a "proper" bladed weaver stance in response (ie- immediately, regardless of training prior to the incident.). In gamey drills where people are not worried about paying any price, they often use unrealistic tactics and "text book" responses that would be unlikely as an initial response under true startle/fear.

****

Horseman,

I like the Taser C2 as a defensive option. In fact, I took a chest shot from that model in October for a training DVD that will be released within a couple of months. We taped that segment at my Regional Rep's facility in Houston, in fact. We did discuss adding these topics to TBD, but ran out of time, so to speak. We plan on covering less lethal options (electrical, chemical, etc) in Season 2. Meanwhile, get the 19 y.o. to a quality Women's Assault Prevention course. I run them occasionally in Houston, if you are anywhere near there, as does one of my instructors in that area.

-RJP

Horseman04 · February 26th, 2009, 10:48 PM

Thanks Rob. I will look into a Women's Assault Prevention course for my daughter. Unfortunately Houston is about a 6 hour drive from here. We are about 60 west of Fort Worth. I will see if I can find anything in the DFW area.

And I will probably have a Taser C2 in my pocket the next time I visit CA. (After properly securing and identifying it to TSA personnel in checked baggage prior to flying of course. I assume I would need to go through the same procedures I would use to carry a gun in checked baggage. I can only imagine the response I would get trying to take one on-board in a carry on. )

Rob Pincus · February 28th, 2009, 01:50 PM

Yeah.. don't try carryon! But, it is not a firearm, so I don't think you'd have to go through the hoops... check with TSA.

If I'm going to do a WAP in Dallas at any point, I'll let you know. It is a strong possibility for the fall, when I'l be back in TX.

-RJP

movingshrub · March 2nd, 2009, 12:49 AM

My roommate and I don't have cable (poor students). Does anyone know where I might be able to download the episodes through torrents?

Horseman04 · March 2nd, 2009, 02:00 PM

Women's Assault Prevention in Dallas?

Please let me know if that comes about Rob. I would definitely send my daughter. And possibly my wife. My wife is a nursing instructor in a local college. She might know several students that might be interested as well. One of the local talk radio stations (KLIF-Dallas) is also a big proponent of concealed carry and self defense. It would probably be possible to get a plug for such a class there.

Rob Pincus · March 17th, 2009, 10:43 PM

Horseman04,

We are doing a WAP in Houston next month, but nothing scheduled for Dallas as of yet.

Meanwhile:

Only 2 Eipsodes of TBD Season 1 are left to air! Tomorrow is the last with all new content, then a BEST OF before the re-runs start!

-RJP

February 24th, 2009, 12:13 AM	#62
Rob Pincus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CO Posts: 138	Para, I agree with you. I like to do the research and see what "reality" says, then develop training theories and methodologies around it. The fact is that, like many situations, the situation is so dynamic and the variables are so many that you really can't do a truly scientific experiment that covers all the bases. The best you can do is isolate areas and test them (the Tueller Drill is a perfect example of isolating one thing (...maybe two..depending on how you look at it), the problem is that people get ahold of that one piece of data and try to paint with a really broad brush about a lot of related topics. I try to avoid that. We have a lot of dash camera and other empirical data that says two things: 1. People will move in real situations. 2. People have low hit rates in real situations. What we are generally trying to do (as explained in the podcast) is channel that initial human survival behavior that is eons old into "lateral movement" and train the process of stopping to shoot. The exception is based on proximity and speed of the attackers movement towards you (again, check out the podcast if you haven't already). S&P are prime motivators of the startle response in the first place, so the S.i.M. Drill assumes the natural overriding drive to move away from danger regardless of training one way or the other. The standard lateral movement (when shooting at beyond 2 arms reach) takes both #1 and #2 into account... directing/accepting #1 and trying to improve #2. On a related note, the guys at the Salk Institute are doing cutting edge work on how the human eye/brain track moving objects. Their studies support the idea that a rapid lateral shift about a body width or two than planting and shooting is likely to cause more disruption over the course of 2-3 seconds than simply moving off in one direction (including a predictable arc). We've always said that the lateral shift before stopping to shoot was causing two interruptions for the bad guys OODA Loop, but the science is now backing that up with good clinical studies. -RJP __________________ The Best Defense: Wednesdays on Outdoor Channel I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

February 24th, 2009, 05:31 AM	#63
HowardCohodas Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Canton, OH Posts: 850	Force on Force Question Mr. Pincus, thank you for your participation on the forum and in this thread. It greatly adds to the "teaching" benefit of the show to be able to ask questions of the teacher about what we have learned. On another topic, you discussed in several posts your concerns regarding the benefits to be derived from the way most FOF training was conducted. In one of the many classes I have taken over the last year, (since my awakening) one of my instructors suggested two benefits you did not discuss. The first one mentioned was overcoming the emotional resistance that most of us have to pulling the trigger while aiming at another human being. The second benefit involved giving the student a reality check on performance expectations during a SD event. He felt that getting stung by pellets induced the student to move to take cover and most importantly, degraded his performance in returning fire and ability to hit a target. He felt this reality check was an important part of developing a proper SD mindset. I can't recall with certainty who the instructor was but it could have been Col. Grossman. I would appreciate your take on these perspectives. __________________ Howard *I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!*

February 25th, 2009, 11:11 AM	#64
Horseman04 Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Lipan, Texas Posts: 121	Rob - I am very new to handguns (and to this forum). I applied for my Texas CHL in mid January and am still waiting on it. I have been surfing the various DirectTV channels to look for anything to help me improve my skills. I found "The Best Defense" only 2 weeks ago. I have found it to be the best thing I have seen yet for personal defense. I am making my wife and daughter watch as well. It has taught us a great deal. As a professional curriculum developer (for a software company) I also recognize and appreciate well-designed educational material. You are doing a superb job with the "Why" and the "How" and I also really like your "Good", "Better", "Best" approach. The episode on the convenience store that stressed patience, movement, and lines of fire was outstanding. I also caught the episode that covered the issues around firing from within a car and using a car for cover. Lots of stuff I had never even thought about. A superb show! Thanks for your work and for the work of the entire team that produces it. One thing I am curious about. My daughter is 19 -- she will have to be 21 before she can carry legally in Texas. At the moment we have her armed with a Taser. Have you considered a show segment with non-firearms for defense such as tasers and pepper sprays for those who can't carry a gun? Another example -- I frequently have to travel to CA on business -- for some reason they don't appear to want anyone from Texas to carry there. And of course there are many locations in different states that prevent handguns but would allow other self-defense items. I have already seen some segments that included some hand-to-hand to break contact and get room to draw. __________________ ....a politically incorrect right-wing fiscally-conservative libertarian NRA card-carrying gun-toting self-sufficient gainfully-employed Bible-believing church-going fundamentalist evangelical Christian. Perhaps you should avoid my company. I might contaminate you.

February 25th, 2009, 11:00 PM	#65
Rob Pincus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CO Posts: 138	Thanks Guys. Howard, I agree with those positives in a general sense. The first certainly sounds like something that Col. Grossman would say, as it is a central issue in his book "On Killing" and the research he conducted which led to the book. The second is a commonly cited positive, but I don't know if people really need much reinforcement in the area of movement during real events. My concern is that it is overemphasised as a benefit when compared to the Bravado with which some students behave when you are doing scenarios that DO NOT involve pellets. In other words, in real situations, we almost always see people react with appropriate concern and fear when faced with being shot (for example, I've NEVER seen a video of a real world counter ambush moment when someone went to a "proper" bladed weaver stance in response (ie- immediately, regardless of training prior to the incident.). In gamey drills where people are not worried about paying any price, they often use unrealistic tactics and "text book" responses that would be unlikely as an initial response under true startle/fear. ** Horseman, I like the Taser C2 as a defensive option. In fact, I took a chest shot from that model in October for a training DVD that will be released within a couple of months. We taped that segment at my Regional Rep's facility in Houston, in fact. We did discuss adding these topics to TBD, but ran out of time, so to speak. We plan on covering less lethal options (electrical, chemical, etc) in Season 2. Meanwhile, get the 19 y.o. to a quality Women's Assault Prevention course. I run them occasionally in Houston, if you are anywhere near there, as does one of my instructors in that area. -RJP __________________ The Best Defense**: Wednesdays on Outdoor Channel I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

February 26th, 2009, 10:48 PM	#66
Horseman04 Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Lipan, Texas Posts: 121	Thanks Rob. I will look into a Women's Assault Prevention course for my daughter. Unfortunately Houston is about a 6 hour drive from here. We are about 60 west of Fort Worth. I will see if I can find anything in the DFW area. And I will probably have a Taser C2 in my pocket the next time I visit CA. (After properly securing and identifying it to TSA personnel in checked baggage prior to flying of course. I assume I would need to go through the same procedures I would use to carry a gun in checked baggage. I can only imagine the response I would get trying to take one on-board in a carry on. ) __________________ ....a politically incorrect right-wing fiscally-conservative libertarian NRA card-carrying gun-toting self-sufficient gainfully-employed Bible-believing church-going fundamentalist evangelical Christian. Perhaps you should avoid my company. I might contaminate you.

February 28th, 2009, 01:50 PM	#67
Rob Pincus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CO Posts: 138	Yeah.. don't try carryon! But, it is not a firearm, so I don't think you'd have to go through the hoops... check with TSA. If I'm going to do a WAP in Dallas at any point, I'll let you know. It is a strong possibility for the fall, when I'l be back in TX. -RJP __________________ The Best Defense: Wednesdays on Outdoor Channel I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

March 2nd, 2009, 12:49 AM	#68
movingshrub Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 32	My roommate and I don't have cable (poor students). Does anyone know where I might be able to download the episodes through torrents?

March 2nd, 2009, 02:00 PM	#69
Horseman04 Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Lipan, Texas Posts: 121	Women's Assault Prevention in Dallas? Please let me know if that comes about Rob. I would definitely send my daughter. And possibly my wife. My wife is a nursing instructor in a local college. She might know several students that might be interested as well. One of the local talk radio stations (KLIF-Dallas) is also a big proponent of concealed carry and self defense. It would probably be possible to get a plug for such a class there. __________________ ....a politically incorrect right-wing fiscally-conservative libertarian NRA card-carrying gun-toting self-sufficient gainfully-employed Bible-believing church-going fundamentalist evangelical Christian. Perhaps you should avoid my company. I might contaminate you.

March 17th, 2009, 10:43 PM	#70
Rob Pincus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: CO Posts: 138	Horseman04, We are doing a WAP in Houston next month, but nothing scheduled for Dallas as of yet. Meanwhile: Only 2 Eipsodes of TBD Season 1 are left to air! Tomorrow is the last with all new content, then a BEST OF before the re-runs start! -RJP __________________ The Best Defense: Wednesdays on Outdoor Channel I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode