Ape

I didn't miss the point. You were trying to say a Hi Point is like an old worn out inexpensive car that may be unreliable by that time. Excluding the whole getting hit from behind and having the gas tank punctured.... A new Pinto would work just fine! And it would be very reliable for many years. Just like anything mechanical a new one could have mechanical issues. And so to could a Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Lamborgini etc...!!!!
By your assesment of an inexpensive car or gun being unreliable, you're essentially saying that if either isn't crafted using the highest quality materials, then it must not be worth having????? So am I and others to assume that cars costing less than 20,000 dollars shouldn't be bought either?

My point is that snobbery, be it gun or car or anything else, is quite simply based on misplaced youthful testosteron laden bravado. It becomes this misguided chest beating contest of keeping up with the Jones's.
It relates closely to some Womens obsessive need to only have expensive name brand clothing to show their psuedo friends how cool they are. When in reality a non name brand item of clothing will work just as well as the more expensive name brand one they feel required to show off.

And no I'm not saying a higher quality car or gun or piece of clothing has the same fit and finish as an inexpensive one. What I am saying is the function is much the same in any of those cases.

TheGreatGonzo

Apparently you did miss the point, because that is not what I was trying to say. Your interpretation of my post is completely incorrect. The Pinto was considered unreliable when it was brand new. That is why it is considered one of the worst car designs in modern history. Google "10 worst car designs" and see what comes up. Then google "10 Least Reliable Handguns" and see what comes up. Hmmmmmm....

I think I have far too many Ruger P-series pistols in my safe to ever be accused of gun snobbery. Now that is a low-cost and butt-ugly but stone-cold reliable handgun. Built like a tank. An ugly tank. Of course, I make them stay in the back of the gun safe, being a gun snob and all.

So, then...it is your contention that the function of your average Hi-Point is just as reliable, across the board, as the function of the average Glock, Sig, S&W, or Beretta? So, you have a pistol available that is the equivalent, in function, of Glock, Sig, S&W, or Beretta, and yet no law enforcement agencies are issuing it. How odd. No major security companies are issuing it. How odd. Both of these entities are well known for being cheap as they can be when it comes to purchasing firearms, but none of them seem to share your choice in the reliable Hi-Point. I wonder why they choose to spend 3 - 6 times as much for other pistols. Hmmmmm....must be gun snobbery.

But, by all means, if you have such great faith and trust in your Hi-Point as to rely on it for your day-to-day protection, continue to carry it. All that really matters is that you are comfortable with it. If you trust it, that is what counts in the end.

Gonzo

__________________
Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people to keep bad people from doing bad things to good people.

QKShooter

Rotorflyr

I really was not attempting to "impress" members at all.
My main dislike of Hi-Point handguns is based on the fact that a critical component of the Hi-Point firearms (the slide) is cast/fabricated from a material that is vastly inferior to steel...in that it becomes increasingly more brittle and loses its inherent strength over time.

I believe that Zinc Diecast is a fantastic material for manufacturing Air-soft pistols but, not for serious self-defense firearms.

In 10 years or 20 (it's impossible to predict exactly when) Hi-Point slides are going to start cracking in half (due to Zinc Diecast embrittlement) it's going to happen during the firing sequence and Hi-Point owners/shooters are going to be wearing slides embedded between their eyes and they will likely become seriously injured.

There IS historical evidence of that exact same phenomena happening with el-cheapo semi-automatic firearms that were manufactured in the past from pot metal.
Those companies ARE no longer in business because they have pretty much been sued out of business.

The same pot metal cracking probably would have happened already with the Hi-Points but, for the "saving grace" that their slides are cast so thick.
So...what Hi-Point has done is substitute material THICKNESS for the lack of long term structural integrity of Zinc Die-cast.

That is working out great for right now but, I personally would not want to be a "future" Hi-Point owner shooting a "slightly vintage" Hi-Point.

Also the fact that Hi-Point has found it necessary to manufacture their slides with such an obvious excess of material has made them incredibly top-heavy, unbalanced, ungainly, and a completely cumbersome PITA for daily carry.

Also the Hi-Point magazines are not very good quality and the magazines for EVERY carry firearm need to be of VERY BEST quality since the magazine is (& always wiil be) the weakest potential link of every semi-auto firearm.
And...there ARE no great "aftermarket" magazines available for Hi-Points.
Has anybody seen a WILSON or a Tripp Research Hi-Point magazine yet? I haven't.

There are also no really good concealment holsters (that I am aware of) available for the Hi-Points even if a member did want to lug one of the thick and ugly ducklings around all day.
Though I admit that is really not a problem if all some thug wants to do is stuff one down into his pants in order rob a liquor store on a Saturday afternoon.
They seem to be a highly popular firearm for that unique purpose.

So when I said that I feel that are totally unsuited for serious daily self-defensive carry...I'm sticking to that.

I am saying that they are not good for my above stated reasons.

You are sort of insinuating that they are good "value" firearms for the money.

If they are so good "for the money" then kindly tell me how many extremely budget conscious Law Enforcement Agencies issue them to their Police officers?

I'm "best guessing" not even one.

Why would that be?

TheGreatGonzo

Heeeeey! Didn't somebody just make that argument?
Gonzo

__________________
Sometimes good people have to do bad things to bad people to keep bad people from doing bad things to good people.

razor02097

I asked if you where kidding because you recomend a saturday night special firearm for CC.



Bottom line cause I'm not going to argue with you (Ape). Many people have issues with Hi-point. I would never ever own one much less carry one. That is my opinion. I would NOT trust a firearm that costs less then the few boxes of ammo it would last through. My life is worth more to me then $150. Hi-point handguns use inferior materials, blowback design is inferior, Construction is heavy and better used as a bludgeoner weapon then a firearm. IMO they arn't safe. If there is a Hi-point fan out there I've offended then sorry by all means continue carrying that Hi-point.

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We the people want a regulated government. They the government want a regulated people.

The only thing keeping government from getting what they want is our rights. Don't let them take our rights away!

oneshot

ROTFLMAO^^^^^^^!!!!!!



"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

__________________
Washington didn’t use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!
NRA all the way

Smith&Wesson M&P9c Kel Tec P11
Dan Wesson 15-2VH

QKShooter

What can I say? - except that....Great, Logical & Intelligent Minds Often Think Alike.

Rotorflyr

QK

I agree that "real" steel is far superior, however:


Your theory that the slides (or any part) of these guns is going to end up embedded between the eye's (or elsewhere) of the person shooting them is pure conjucture and it isn't like there haven't been cases of all steel guns failing (though I would agree it's a less likely/common occurence)


As you yourself have said, the guns that historicaly did cause injuries were made of thinner material and the difference in thickness could very well be the difference between a simple crack forming and a catostrophic failure that injures the shooter.

I wouldn't either, but then again I don't think that Hi-points were designed with the intent to be "Legacy" guns and "Right Now" is when some people have need of defensive tools, so why totally discount something because it may fail 5-10-20 yrs from now?

Yep, again I agree, and unless it was the only gun I had or could afford I wouldn't (and don't) carry one and never said they were well suited for carry (though there are people who do carry them, the c9 in particular without issue)

Considering that there are plenty of Hi-point owners who have stated that their's have never failed to go bang, and have never had an ftf or fte, I don't think that you can claim that the mags are across the board junk (sure they're not top quality, but would you expect top custom quality in a $150 gun?)

You also hear about people having problems with *name your gun brand* mags, but they don't automatically become the worst thing on the market due to it.

(why is it again that it's ok to have problems with an expensive gun but not an inexpensive one?)

With a couple of exceptions there are few "great" ones for other guns (and plenty of crap ones out there) and Wilson and Tripp also don't make mag's for Glocks, XD's, M&P's either, so not sure I really get your point.

Galco, Don Hume, Fobus, Uncle Mikes all make holsters for/that will fit the C9 (granted Fobus and UM's stuff isn't all that great) and I'm sure there are others, as well as custom makers out there who would make you one if you wanted to wait/pay them to.


Glocks are popular with the thugs as well....


Nope not insinuating that they are good "value" firearms for the money, I'll say it outright....They're "Good" (not great and not the total crap some people try to make them out to be) value for the money.

With a quick look on gunbroker, the various models are selling for between $140-$160 so let's split the difference and call it $150

We'll use the time frame you gave at the begining of your post
10-20 years..... again we'll split the difference and call it 15yrs:

365 x 15 = 5475 (days)
150 / 5475 = $0.027

So for less then $0.03 a day for 15yrs, how could you not say it's a value
(and no Im not saying they will last 1000's of rounds a year for that long, but we both know that those that own them aren't shooting them that much)


Can't say for sure if there are any agencies issuing them, but then I couldn't tell you what every dept (large or small) is issuing for duty (can you?).

As for why, well like you said (and I fully agree) they are big n bulky and not very well suited to carry.

I have heard that there have been some small depts that have bought the carbines for use in their cruisers..(again don't know for sure)

You are certinally entitled to your opinion about them not being suited for daily self-defense carry, and I don't think anyone is saying you should carry one, however having said all that, there is nothing you have stated that truly negates them as viable defensive weapons (be it as a truck gun, night stand gun or even to carry) for people who simply Can Not Afford To Spend More and may feel (right or wrong) they can't wait to scrimp and scrounge and save every penny til they have "Another $100" (that may be easy for some of us to do) and still be able to put food on the table, buy medications and pay other bills and while every once in a while you may find a great deal on a used gun, they seem to be fewer and further between then they used to be.

__________________
When Guns Are Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have guns

Just remember, When seconds count help is mere minutes away

Also remember, When you go to trial by jury you are putting yourself into the hands of 12 people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

razor02097

Glock is known for simplicity and reliability... yet there is no glock that is a pure blowback design. They use a locked breech. Its because for the simple reason blowback centerfire pistols are cheap to make but have a higher chance of failure. Its a juggle because you need to use hot enough ammo to operate the blowback slide yet not too hot as to blow up the pistol. The recoil spring needs to be strong enough to strip a round out of the mag but weak enough for the slide to operate.

With a cast and plastic pistol its a gamble. You get good ones and bad ones. The good ones last a while the bad ones see the factory more then the range. I hear more bad then good. others may hear the other way round. I have heard to stay away from cheap ....stuff.... others may have been told different. I have heard "you get what you pay for" I would rather buy a pistol on friday morning that I have a very high chance to shoot friday afternoon instead of a Hi-point that I have a very high chance of sending to the factory for an issue.

I keep hearing the argument of cost... cost... Again I say to you. How much is YOUR life and limb worth to you? How about the people you may have to protect such as family? Can all of you Hi-point owners out there say with out a doubt that you are 100% sure when you pull the trigger it will go bang?

Would you buy a car the same way? If Hi-point made a car that has a cast unibody, outdated features and mixed opinions cause of its low cost but high failure rate it only cost $500 new? Why would you ever spend $5000 on a proven car when you can only afford the $500 one right?

__________________
We the people want a regulated government. They the government want a regulated people.

The only thing keeping government from getting what they want is our rights. Don't let them take our rights away!

mastercapt

I believe that the car you are referring to was called a Yugo...

Actually, I am sorry and apologize for posting the original question.
However, I enjoy a good argument.

How about the guns which use polymer slides? Thats plastic. Must be a real POS, Eh?
Like a Glock....and others....
Hey, only kidding....Hmmmm.

Really, I wanted the HP for my vehicle. I keep my guns clean and practice with them, so if one starts giving problems, I either fix it or trade it. It is NOT my main carry gun. I carry a stainless .380 with hydrashoks, made by a major manufacturer, and had the action polished, for my CC gun. I'm a smaller guy and can't really conceal anything bigger, with the light clothing we wear here in Florida.
(7:30 and its 78 out now)