Posting of Custom Holster "Problems"

Bumper · April 8th, 2007, 03:10 AM

By now, I'm sure most of you are aware of the problems we have had with members posting threads to this forum regarding the amount of time it takes for them to receive their custom holster order from any of a number of holster craftsmen. We want the forum to be a resource to our membership for all related topics, including holsters. We can't do that unless (as several of you have pointed out) we let the negative experiences be posted along with the positive ones. Trying to keep things civil and "flameless" causes us to sometimes have to call a halt to tensions until a clarification can be crafted. This is that clarification, and refinement, of our policy on posting about holster problems.

Please take a minute to familiarize yourself with this information prior to posting a negative review.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Holster Customers

I know how frustrating it is to order something and then not receive it in a reasonable amount of time. It's happened to me before, although not on holsters (knock on wood) and hopefully it's an experience I will miss. The look and feel, durability, performance and pride of ownership makes the purchase of custom gunleather worth the wait and the expense. But there are limits to what is considered reasonable by most people. Mine would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 months. Six months would start getting me irritated, and a year just isn't happening to me without things getting pretty pissy. Your tolerances may be much different than mine, however.

There are alot of really great craftsmen out there making gunleather. Finding one that doesn't charge in full upfront for the item shouldn't be hard. It's just my opinion, but most consumers would probably benefit by looking until they found one. A reasonable deposit would probably be acceptable, but paying for the whole thing could create problems for you resolving issues down the line. Be an informed consumer. But be patient. You placed the order with this person because it is the item you want. It's handmade and deserves the attention required to make it into something you will be proud of.

Holstermakers

Even though I have never experienced it myself, since I am not a craftsman of any kind, I can understand frustrations that come up due to a seemingly endless number of business problems. Vendor and supplier problems are problematic in most businesses, as are sudden ups and downs in customer orders. Add to that family emergencies, illnesses and accidents which can, and do, create some very real problems. A ripple effect of not delivering in a reasonable amount of time may also damage professional reputations. A quality product, a fair price, timely delivery, a good reputation and good communication are about all it takes. Fail in one area and you can find yourself out of business pretty darned quick. And this isn't limited to holster crafting, either. The same can be said about most other businesses, both large and small. Answer your customers' emails and telephone calls, or have someone do it for you. Resolve disputes quickly by communicating the status of an order. Be fair to your customers.

DefensiveCarry Forum

We're here as a resource to our members. We consider all of our members friends (most of them anyway). We are here solely to provide our membership with a forum where everyone can relate their own personal experiences, how they handled certain defensive situations and what their experiences have been with a particular gun/holster/knife/training class/vendor, whether good or bad. Learning from other people's experiences is what we are all about. And although I have, in the last few weeks or so had to take some pretty radical steps (for the forum) to try and cool down some of the "tense" posts, I don't think they will work, longterm.

We either provide our members the benefit of everyone's experience (on all topics we focus on) or we don't. Where we disallow a thread we leave a void, a failure, in our mission. Not allowing people to comment on their experience with a product or service will not help our members be better consumers. In fact it may cause those that don't otherwise have access to positive, or negative, information to make bad purchases. It also causes us (the forum and staff) to lose credibility with our membership, something we have worked very hard to gain.

To get us back on track and acting in the best interest of our membership above all else, we will allow good and bad experiences to be posted on all goods and services related to our subject matter. There are, however, several guidelines (rules) that our members (including those that are on the business side of this equation) will be expected to follow in order for their posts to remain in the public area of the forum. They will, I believe, solve the problem of keeping the forum civil and flame free while allowing the needed information to get out to those considering a purchase. If it doesn't work as expected, we will go back to the drawing board and work to come up with something else. We will not allow the forum to become a pulpit from which rants can be delivered.

1. Feel free to post your reviews and experiences, but do not post specific grievances (ie. "where's my holster" threads) expecting them to be resolved simply because you are broadcasting them publicly. There are two sides to most stories and we do not want to be drawn into "taking sides". It's also not right for us to provide a venue for those that would use the forum to destroy the reputation of a small businessperson simply because they don't like them, or their product or some other related, or unrelated, aspect of their business. A negative review of customer service or wait times is acceptable IF it is a review and not a rant or flame.

2. Get control of your emotions before posting. We have rules specific to flaming and they are enforced. Stating the facts without flaming or name calling will help your credibility; trashing a business unmercifully triggers our suspicions regarding just what the poster is trying to accomplish and will probably result in the removal of the thread or post. I cannot say it enough, we will not tolerate flames or otherwise heated accusations. If you're not sure whether you are about to post something that will cross the line, feel free to run it past forum staff, including myself.

3. Exhaust other means of resolving the problem prior to going public here with a negative review. Use the telephone, the business' website and/or email. Do a search on the forum to see if you can find someone else that has had a similar problem and inquire about how they resolved it. As we've said many times, we are not a customer service department for anyone. We cannot resolve your problem.

4. Don't post second hand information. If you have a "friend" that has had a negative experience, encourage them to become a member and post, within the rules. Things become convoluted real quick when we are subjected to someone trying to relate second hand information. How interesting or useful would reviews be if they were not firsthand? They wouldn't be. If you're looking for a cause to throw in with, I would suggest Second Amendment issues.

5. Don't be surprised if your thread or post is edited if the rules are broken. You may or may not be notified of minor edits to remove objectionable parts of a post that would otherwise be allowed. It should be considered a courtesy by staff to take the time to edit the post rather than just remove it.

6. If your post is removed, you will most likely be contacted by PM or possibly email, if you have those features turned on in your profile. If you don't receive any explanation, you may want to inquire through PM to an administrator (including myself) or moderator for an explanation of why your post was deleted or disappeared. DO NOT REPOST YOUR SITUATION AFTER IT HAS BEEN REMOVED. Doing so may result in having your membership revoked. We often will move a post to the staff area so moderators/administrators can decide what the final disposition should be. PMs chewing us out for "deleting your thread" will all but insure that the thread will not be returned to the forum.

Summary

We want to be fair, whether you are a customer or a small business owner, and will make every effort to do what's right by everyone involved. This will often make our decisions unpopular with one side or the other, but unfortunately decisions whether popular or not must be made. It should also be said that members should take into consideration that details being related in a review may be completely contrary to our own experiences. They are also heavily laden with the same thing that all threads and posts in forums are full of. Opinions. Accurately relate your reviews and experiences, but don't rant, flame or otherwise attack the integrity of other members. We're all on the same side here.

Remember:

Positive or Negative Reviews - Allowed and left in forum;
Customer Service Posts - Not allowed and will removed from the forum.

Please help us maintain the civility the forum has become known for.....

BruceGibson · April 8th, 2007, 03:21 AM

Bravo! As a custom leather worker--saddles, tack, gunleather, this is a good thing. I want my customers to have a forum where they can brag about my work...or, not. I answer my e-mails, and I return my phone calls. And I work in the bright lights of public exposure. I also love this forum.

Customer service issues? You won't have them--if you're not happy with a wait-time, or the item you receive, then you get ALL of your money back. Including shipping. Period. I want you to post happy things about my products...and if you can't do that, then I want to at least see you post something along the lines of "I didn't like it/it didn't work for me, but they left me the way they found me...with all my money in my wallet where it started."

It's so easy...answer e-mails; return phone calls. And I won't sully my reputation over a $120 belt. You'll be happy, or you'll be made whole again--with every PENNY of your money back. PERIOD.

Thanks, Bumper.

maclean3 · April 8th, 2007, 06:44 AM

Shouldn't this be a sticky?

ordy1 · April 8th, 2007, 06:51 AM

Bumper I applaud the decision to allow comments on custom maker customer service problems, While I agree this forum is not the place to start flames I like the idea that if I had a problem I could post my experience here and not be afraid of the results, say the maker is a moderator. I have a couple of custom holsters and I have to say the workmanship on them is superb, The biggest problem I see is the makers that give you a delivery date that is totally unrealistic. And then have nothing but excuses for lack of delivery. As a customer and maybe this is just me I hate to continually make call's, Email etcetera as to where my holster is. I always try to give a man the benefit of doubt but trust me it gets old when you get the Oh were sorry we'll get it out in 2 weeks. ( on my third 2 weeks I promise).
going on a year for that particular holster. Well didn't mean to go on this long thanks for a great forum that really is for the members.

K-Man · April 8th, 2007, 06:54 AM

"Customer Service Posts - Not allowed and will removed from the forum."

ordy1 - it's my understanding customer service reviews/problems will not be allowed.

enigmaone · April 8th, 2007, 09:54 AM

Thank you. I feel Better..

kpw · April 8th, 2007, 10:43 AM

This is a great idea. I think it's the best way to keep people informed about situations without getting nasty. Nothing ruins a good forum like threads turned bad and if this can keep it fair and clean while still allowing both sides to get their information presented, fantastic. There are makers out there that may have problems with delivering on time for whatever reasons they may have. I understand that things happen. I've had them happen to me. I just want to know that there is a delay and about how long it will be. I've prepaid for every order I've ever made. It is easier for me. I haven't had a problem yet but there are makers that I have avoided or delayed ordering from because of problems. I only know about these problems because of forums like this. I like to hear about the problems without degenerating into name calling BS. There is a maker or two that I will happily place an order with when they are caught up. There is only one that I can think of that is a never, no way, forget about it kind of guy and no, I don't believe that guy posts here or anywhere. No names as that's just my opinion of him.

Tom G · April 8th, 2007, 04:02 PM

People Forget That Sometimes It Is A One Man Shop With A Lot Of Orders. A Rushed Job Leads To Mistakes And Poor Quality.

dr_cmg · April 8th, 2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Man

"Customer Service Posts - Not allowed and will removed from the forum."

ordy1 - it's my understanding customer service reviews/problems will not be allowed.

Kevin, we will allow reviews of customer service problems, but only after the fact. We will remove any post that is relating a current problem. We will not be anyones customer service department. If a user wants to post a review saying the holster is great, but that the service he received was not what he expected that is OK. We think that our members deserve to know what kind of service they will receive from makers. A flame couched in the terms of a review will be disappear just as fast as a current customer service post.

BruceGibson · April 8th, 2007, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr_cmg

Kevin, we will allow reviews of customer service problems, but only after the fact. We will remove any post that is relating a current problem. We will not be anyones customer service department. If a user wants to post a review saying the holster is great, but that the service he received was not what he expected that is OK. We think that our members deserve to know what kind of service they will receive from makers. A flame couched in the terms of a review will be disappear just as fast as a current customer service post.

I agree with this completely. It could, potentially, burn me down the road, but that would be my fault. We do a BUNCH of holster/belt/accessory reviews and I personally think it's an important part of the forum. Kevin certainly has nothing to worry about--he does beautiful work, and he under-promises and over-delivers. His customers dote on him.

April 8th, 2007, 03:10 AM	#1
Bumper Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 17,252	Posting of Custom Holster "Problems" By now, I'm sure most of you are aware of the problems we have had with members posting threads to this forum regarding the amount of time it takes for them to receive their custom holster order from any of a number of holster craftsmen. We want the forum to be a resource to our membership for all related topics, including holsters. We can't do that unless (as several of you have pointed out) we let the negative experiences be posted along with the positive ones. Trying to keep things civil and "flameless" causes us to sometimes have to call a halt to tensions until a clarification can be crafted. This is that clarification, and refinement, of our policy on posting about holster problems. Please take a minute to familiarize yourself with this information prior to posting a negative review. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Holster Customers I know how frustrating it is to order something and then not receive it in a reasonable amount of time. It's happened to me before, although not on holsters (knock on wood) and hopefully it's an experience I will miss. The look and feel, durability, performance and pride of ownership makes the purchase of custom gunleather worth the wait and the expense. But there are limits to what is considered reasonable by most people. Mine would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 months. Six months would start getting me irritated, and a year just isn't happening to me without things getting pretty pissy. Your tolerances may be much different than mine, however. There are alot of really great craftsmen out there making gunleather. Finding one that doesn't charge in full upfront for the item shouldn't be hard. It's just my opinion, but most consumers would probably benefit by looking until they found one. A reasonable deposit would probably be acceptable, but paying for the whole thing could create problems for you resolving issues down the line. Be an informed consumer. But be patient. You placed the order with this person because it is the item you want. It's handmade and deserves the attention required to make it into something you will be proud of. Holstermakers Even though I have never experienced it myself, since I am not a craftsman of any kind, I can understand frustrations that come up due to a seemingly endless number of business problems. Vendor and supplier problems are problematic in most businesses, as are sudden ups and downs in customer orders. Add to that family emergencies, illnesses and accidents which can, and do, create some very real problems. A ripple effect of not delivering in a reasonable amount of time may also damage professional reputations. A quality product, a fair price, timely delivery, a good reputation and good communication are about all it takes. Fail in one area and you can find yourself out of business pretty darned quick. And this isn't limited to holster crafting, either. The same can be said about most other businesses, both large and small. Answer your customers' emails and telephone calls, or have someone do it for you. Resolve disputes quickly by communicating the status of an order. Be fair to your customers. DefensiveCarry Forum We're here as a resource to our members. We consider all of our members friends (most of them anyway). We are here solely to provide our membership with a forum where everyone can relate their own personal experiences, how they handled certain defensive situations and what their experiences have been with a particular gun/holster/knife/training class/vendor, whether good or bad. Learning from other people's experiences is what we are all about. And although I have, in the last few weeks or so had to take some pretty radical steps (for the forum) to try and cool down some of the "tense" posts, I don't think they will work, longterm. We either provide our members the benefit of everyone's experience (on all topics we focus on) or we don't. Where we disallow a thread we leave a void, a failure, in our mission. Not allowing people to comment on their experience with a product or service will not help our members be better consumers. In fact it may cause those that don't otherwise have access to positive, or negative, information to make bad purchases. It also causes us (the forum and staff) to lose credibility with our membership, something we have worked very hard to gain. To get us back on track and acting in the best interest of our membership above all else, we will allow good and bad experiences to be posted on all goods and services related to our subject matter. There are, however, several guidelines (rules) that our members (including those that are on the business side of this equation) will be expected to follow in order for their posts to remain in the public area of the forum. They will, I believe, solve the problem of keeping the forum civil and flame free while allowing the needed information to get out to those considering a purchase. If it doesn't work as expected, we will go back to the drawing board and work to come up with something else. We will not allow the forum to become a pulpit from which rants can be delivered. 1. Feel free to post your reviews and experiences, but do not post specific grievances (ie. "where's my holster" threads) expecting them to be resolved simply because you are broadcasting them publicly. There are two sides to most stories and we do not want to be drawn into "taking sides". It's also not right for us to provide a venue for those that would use the forum to destroy the reputation of a small businessperson simply because they don't like them, or their product or some other related, or unrelated, aspect of their business. A negative review of customer service or wait times is acceptable IF it is a review and not a rant or flame. 2. Get control of your emotions before posting. We have rules specific to flaming and they are enforced. Stating the facts without flaming or name calling will help your credibility; trashing a business unmercifully triggers our suspicions regarding just what the poster is trying to accomplish and will probably result in the removal of the thread or post. I cannot say it enough, we will not tolerate flames or otherwise heated accusations. If you're not sure whether you are about to post something that will cross the line, feel free to run it past forum staff, including myself. 3. Exhaust other means of resolving the problem prior to going public here with a negative review. Use the telephone, the business' website and/or email. Do a search on the forum to see if you can find someone else that has had a similar problem and inquire about how they resolved it. As we've said many times, we are not a customer service department for anyone. We cannot resolve your problem. 4. Don't post second hand information. If you have a "friend" that has had a negative experience, encourage them to become a member and post, within the rules. Things become convoluted real quick when we are subjected to someone trying to relate second hand information. How interesting or useful would reviews be if they were not firsthand? They wouldn't be. If you're looking for a cause to throw in with, I would suggest Second Amendment issues. 5. Don't be surprised if your thread or post is edited if the rules are broken. You may or may not be notified of minor edits to remove objectionable parts of a post that would otherwise be allowed. It should be considered a courtesy by staff to take the time to edit the post rather than just remove it. 6. If your post is removed, you will most likely be contacted by PM or possibly email, if you have those features turned on in your profile. If you don't receive any explanation, you may want to inquire through PM to an administrator (including myself) or moderator for an explanation of why your post was deleted or disappeared. DO NOT REPOST YOUR SITUATION AFTER IT HAS BEEN REMOVED. Doing so may result in having your membership revoked. We often will move a post to the staff area so moderators/administrators can decide what the final disposition should be. PMs chewing us out for "deleting your thread" will all but insure that the thread will not be returned to the forum. Summary We want to be fair, whether you are a customer or a small business owner, and will make every effort to do what's right by everyone involved. This will often make our decisions unpopular with one side or the other, but unfortunately decisions whether popular or not must be made. It should also be said that members should take into consideration that details being related in a review may be completely contrary to our own experiences. They are also heavily laden with the same thing that all threads and posts in forums are full of. Opinions. Accurately relate your reviews and experiences, but don't rant, flame or otherwise attack the integrity of other members. We're all on the same side here. Remember: Positive or Negative Reviews - Allowed and left in forum; Customer Service Posts - Not allowed and will removed from the forum. Please help us maintain the civility the forum has become known for..... __________________ Bumper Administrator DefensiveCarry.com Forum Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

April 8th, 2007, 03:21 AM	#2
BruceGibson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Northwest Florida...The "Redneck Riviera" Posts: 783	Bravo! As a custom leather worker--saddles, tack, gunleather, this is a good thing. I want my customers to have a forum where they can brag about my work...or, not. I answer my e-mails, and I return my phone calls. And I work in the bright lights of public exposure. I also love this forum. Customer service issues? You won't have them--if you're not happy with a wait-time, or the item you receive, then you get ALL of your money back. Including shipping. Period. I want you to post happy things about my products...and if you can't do that, then I want to at least see you post something along the lines of "I didn't like it/it didn't work for me, but they left me the way they found me...with all my money in my wallet where it started." It's so easy...answer e-mails; return phone calls. And I won't sully my reputation over a $120 belt. You'll be happy, or you'll be made whole again--with every PENNY of your money back. PERIOD. Thanks, Bumper. __________________ "He who is silent is deemed to consent." www.GibsonGunleather.com

April 8th, 2007, 06:44 AM	#3
maclean3 VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,062	Shouldn't this be a sticky? __________________ "The sheep are everywhere. We are raising up a nation of cannon fodder types and we are screwed." HotGuns

April 8th, 2007, 09:54 AM	#6
enigmaone Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: englewood fl Posts: 989	Thank you. I feel Better.. __________________ quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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April 8th, 2007, 06:51 AM	#4
ordy1 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: northern nevada Posts: 47	Bumper I applaud the decision to allow comments on custom maker customer service problems, While I agree this forum is not the place to start flames I like the idea that if I had a problem I could post my experience here and not be afraid of the results, say the maker is a moderator. I have a couple of custom holsters and I have to say the workmanship on them is superb, The biggest problem I see is the makers that give you a delivery date that is totally unrealistic. And then have nothing but excuses for lack of delivery. As a customer and maybe this is just me I hate to continually make call's, Email etcetera as to where my holster is. I always try to give a man the benefit of doubt but trust me it gets old when you get the Oh were sorry we'll get it out in 2 weeks. ( on my third 2 weeks I promise). going on a year for that particular holster. Well didn't mean to go on this long thanks for a great forum that really is for the members.

April 8th, 2007, 06:54 AM	#5
K-Man Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: FL Posts: 310	"Customer Service Posts - Not allowed and will removed from the forum." ordy1 - it's my understanding customer service reviews/problems will not be allowed.

April 8th, 2007, 10:43 AM	#7
kpw Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: PA Posts: 1,107	This is a great idea. I think it's the best way to keep people informed about situations without getting nasty. Nothing ruins a good forum like threads turned bad and if this can keep it fair and clean while still allowing both sides to get their information presented, fantastic. There are makers out there that may have problems with delivering on time for whatever reasons they may have. I understand that things happen. I've had them happen to me. I just want to know that there is a delay and about how long it will be. I've prepaid for every order I've ever made. It is easier for me. I haven't had a problem yet but there are makers that I have avoided or delayed ordering from because of problems. I only know about these problems because of forums like this. I like to hear about the problems without degenerating into name calling BS. There is a maker or two that I will happily place an order with when they are caught up. There is only one that I can think of that is a never, no way, forget about it kind of guy and no, I don't believe that guy posts here or anywhere. No names as that's just my opinion of him.

April 8th, 2007, 04:02 PM	#8
Tom G VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,031	People Forget That Sometimes It Is A One Man Shop With A Lot Of Orders. A Rushed Job Leads To Mistakes And Poor Quality.