Anyone for elephant? - Page 4

ronwill · August 9th, 2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musketeer

True. At the same time if you allow a legal transaction, even an expensive one as they are doing, it removes much of the profit that drives the poaching. The best thing that could be done to help the poachers would be to ban all transactions. That would drive the price up to a level that would support poaching better than the current market prices do.

The comparison to drugs is perfect, but not in the way you intended. The reason people run drugs in illegally is because it is so hugely profitable. Tons of illegal $$$ are made off of smuggling because there is NO legal method or market. This is no different than the effect of prohibition on organized crime. They profited from it immensely because the only way to fill the demand was for an illegal market to be established where prices were high, regulation nil, and competition only presented by others also ating illegally.

If we were serious about winning the bogus war on drugs we would legalize it and remove the $$$ from those currently running it. We could then regulate it in a way it is not now. This logic was proven when prohibition ended. It has been proven by the way certain Aftrican nations are handling their exotics now.

There will always be poaching, ban or no ban. There will always be movie stars making films decrying the slaughter of noble animals... blah blah blah. What should concern us is real results. What you want to do is minimize the uncontrolled poaching while maximize the benifits to both the species AND the people of the nations where those animals exist that the procesing of some animals can provide. Leaving the profit for the native nations and people out of the equation is a sure fired way to doom the animals. Unless those animals bring in $$$ to support the efforts made to care for them then you cannot expect those nations to invest in them.

Controlled trade in animal products and hunting has been the ONLY long term method proven to ensure the health of an exotic species as far as I am aware.

Personally I am not going to drop the $$$ just to tell someone my rig is made out of an elephant. There are plenty of horses and cows that do the job just fine as well as man made materials.

Can't argue any of that. I have always believed in controlled hunts for the same reasons. Remember though, what's not profitable to us may be for someone else. A hundred dollars to some is a lot of money.

NYCMedic · August 9th, 2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKShooter

Also: Knee-jerk exaggerating an intelligent argument never helps to further the truth.
The last time I checked there were 2 sellers on Ebay selling Ivory grip and not One Hundred & One.

Here are a few sellers that have ivory grips listed today. I think that it is clear that I meant numerous sellers not that I counted one hundred and one. And at what point did this become an argument? All that I said is, "Truth be told I have a soft spot for elephants and wouldn't order a holster made out of one. Mine is going to be stingray. It's not that I have a problem with using animal products, but the idea of supporting killing elephants bothers me. Regardless, this is beautiful!" And, "I hear what you are saying about the skin. (I do not claim to be some kind of expert on the matter, but it is logical that buying a product funds its harvest.) About the ivory, are you saying that the 101 people selling new ivory grips on ebay are all using preban ivory?"
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLT-MODEL-1911-...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Elepant-Ivory-Gr...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Colt-Ivory-Gover...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ruger-BLACKHAWK-...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLT-OFFICERS-GR...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ivory-Pistol-Gri...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/COLT-SLIM-LINE-O...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-Colt-Bark-E...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ivory-Ebony-Gun-...QQcmdZViewItem

I apologize for starting this tangent with my feelings for elephants comment. I did not mean for it to snowball into the point of this thread.
Anyway, nice holster isn't it.

wareagleky · August 9th, 2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCMedic

Truth be told I have a soft spot for elephants and wouldn't order a holster made out of one. Mine is going to be stingray. It's not that I have a problem with using animal products, but the idea of supporting killing elephants bothers me. Regardless, this is beautiful!

+1 to not supporting the killing of elephants. It is a nice setup however.

QKShooter · August 9th, 2007, 02:00 PM

gripmaker23 - is a legal seller.

loobey - is a known legal seller - that is Nutmeg Sports - I will post a link to his page in a few minutes.
http://www.nutmegsports.com/ Scroll down the FAQ Page to #6

The blackhawk grips you put up as an Ebay example are imitation ivory AKA polymer AKA Fake. It is stated in the text.

One set of 1911's is obviously at least 40 years old since you cannot fake age on ivory. And actually I just went back to that auction page and looked at the enlarged photos and they are Mexican carved bone and are not Ivory. The seller is wrong in calling them Ivory. In fact I just sent him an E-mail through Ebay because that is a fradulent auction if he is selling them as ivory. Somebody is going to get ripped off.

the next set you have listed is bonded fake ivory. Usually made from powder cow bone mixed with polymer resin. That is stated in the text.

the next set dates to the 60's

the next set is elan hunting they are also documented legal - you can view their web page also...they are documented legal.
Elan Hunting buys old domestic auction and estate ivory.

The final set that you have listed up there are also fake and they are Ivory Micarta. Which are resin and in no way related to natural elephant ivory.

I am not starting an argument. I am just presenting facts and the the unemotional fact that I stated is that there are not 101 sellers on Ebay selling ivory grips. You said that and not me and I was clearing up a false statement. No argument wanted or intended.

QKShooter · August 9th, 2007, 02:08 PM

From David Boone Of Boone Trading Company.
It helps to be familiar with the Domestic and International laws that are on the books these days. This should help.
All credit to David Boone Of Boone Trading Company.

A frequently encountered misconception is that all ivory is "illegal" indicated by that oft heard phrase "I thought ivory was illegal". NOT! The following is a summary of the international and U.S. Fish & Wildlife laws which regulate the commerce of ivory: The international trade in wildlife and plants is regulated by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.) [a multinational protege of the United Nations]. Formed in 1973, the aim is to establish worldwide controls over plants & wildlife that require protecting due to declining populations. Headquartered in Switzerland, C.I.T.E.S., delegates meet every two years to review data & set new quotas to increase, decrease or maintain the level of protection on individual species. C.I.T.E.S. regulations do not control a country's internal commerce, only the international trade between member nations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INTERNATIONAL SHIPMENTS
All orders of oosik, walrus, fossil walrus, hippo or warthog ivory that are to be shipped out of the U. S. require a re-export permit which costs $30 per shipment and takes 30-45 days to acquire (considerably less time than they used to). Elephant ivory is not exportable. Mammoth and mastodon ivories do not require a permit. This $30 fee must be included with foreign orders for these ivories.

Within the United States, wildlife product commerce is regulated on a state and federal level. Interstate (between states) commerce of wildlife products in the United States is regulated by the U. S. Endangered Species Act of 1972 by the Dept. of the Interior/U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service & by the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 administered by National Marine Fisheries Service. We will give a review of Federal wildlife law in the following paragraphs. Unfortunately we do not have the space to review individual state wildlife laws. Each state has a Department of Fish & Wildlife or Game Department located in the state's capitol city.

We recommend that you check with your state game officials before buying wildlife products for resale (private ownership is not restricted). To find out about your state's wildlife laws, call the state Fish & Game Dept.- Law Enforcement Division in your capitol city. You can ask them about the regulations but have them mail you a copy, then read it. Wildlife agents are often an incredibly poor source of accurate info.

*African Elephant On the C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of African elephant ivory is not allowed internationally. It cannot be imported into or exported out of the U.S. or practically any other country of the world. It is legal to own, buy, sell or ship within the United States and there are no permits or registration requirements (those were required for importation into the U.S.).

The raw elephant ivory we are selling now is all old "estate" ivory which was legally imported years ago.

* Asian Elephant On the U.S. & C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of Asian elephant ivory is not allowed internationally or interstate within the U. S.

* Bowhead Whale Baleen Protected by the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Legal to sell via an exemption allowing Eskimos to hunt whales and sell baleen crafts.

* Hippopotamus and Warthog Protected but not endangered. Once it has been imported into the U.S. no permit or documentation is necessary to buy or sell these ivories interstate. Hippos are dangerous animals and a serious problem in many parts of Africa. They account for more human deaths per year than crocodiles and poisonous snakes combined. Populations are frequently thinned out through government culling operations. The meat, hides and ivory are utilized. Warthogs are also very common and are hunted for food. A $30 export permit is required to ship these ivories out of the U.S.

* Mammoth or Mastodon Different animals, different looking tusks, the cut ivory can look nearly the same. Commerce in this 10,000-40,000 year old ivory is completely unrestricted. A great deal of this ivory in cut form looks practically identical to elephant ivory (except for the outer layer where all the color and weathering is). Our friends at U.S. Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory have discovered a reliable indicator for differentiating between prehistoric mammoth and modern elephant ivory. Color is no indication; it is the angle that the cross grain lines bisect themselves. Angles of less than 90% indicate that it's mammoth/mastodon, angles greater than 120% show that it's elephant. This information is now being shared with customs and wildlife agents around the world so that mammoth ivory will clear customs inspections and not be subject to seizures or delays.

* Sperm Whale An endangered species regulated by the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Importation for commercial purposes has been prohibited since 1973. Interstate sales of registered pre-act teeth with scrimshaw is allowed under a special federal permit. Unregistered pre-act teeth can no longer be registered and cannot be transported across interstate lines for commercial purposes. They can be sold intrastate as long as state law does not prohibit. Antique scrimshaw (100 years plus) can be sold interstate. We do not buy or sell whales' teeth outside of Washington State.

* Walrus are regulated by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service under the 1972 Marine Mammal Protection Act. Raw walrus ivory predating the Dec. 21, 1972 law, tusks bearing the Alaska state walrus ivory registration tags or post-law walrus ivory that has been carved or scrimshawed by an Alaskan native (Eskimo) are legal to buy, possess, and sell. Raw walrus ivory obtained after 12/21/72 is not legal to buy or sell unless both parties are Eskimo (it is legal to own). A $30 export permit is required to ship walrus ivory or oosik (legal as per above) out of the United States.

* Fossil Walrus Ivory is not restricted as it pre-dates the 1972 cutoff, it is legal to buy and sell anywhere within the United States. Shipping ivory or oosik out of the U. S. requires a $30 permit.

NYCMedic · August 9th, 2007, 02:54 PM

Alex said that he put the mags in that direction out of habit and he is a right handed. OOPS! At lest it's not jammed into the gun backwards.

Kevin · August 9th, 2007, 03:36 PM

if it walks on four legs - I want a holster out of it....

Thats just me

So far I've had

ostrich
beaver
stingray
alligator
elephant
shark
cow (duh)
horsehide
lizard

I'm pretty sure the people that made these holsters didn't get it from poachers. I think its my way of making PETA mad. Besides, have you seen Tyson Chickens facilities? They stack thousands of those chickens on top of each other - really gross - but we still eat their chicken...

Everyone has their own opinion - and I'll respect theirs if they respect mine...

Matt Del Fatti · August 9th, 2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCMedic

Alex said that he put the mags in that direction out of habit and he is a right handed. OOPS! At lest it's not jammed into the gun backwards.

Now, THAT'S funny!!! Ya know, in view of the beautiful workmanship and the very nice photography, I'm thinkin' the backwards mags is a minor issue

los · August 9th, 2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Del Fatti

I don't think so Jimmy. A left hander would have had them in correctly.....

Hey Matt.

I was just trying to poke fun at all "you" leftys....

DirtDawg · August 9th, 2007, 05:56 PM

That rig would look extra sweet with a set of ivory grips!

(rimshot-Runs for cover)

August 9th, 2007, 02:00 PM	#34
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,495	Ebay gripmaker23 - is a legal seller. loobey - is a known legal seller - that is Nutmeg Sports - I will post a link to his page in a few minutes. http://www.nutmegsports.com/ Scroll down the FAQ Page to #6 The blackhawk grips you put up as an Ebay example are imitation ivory AKA polymer AKA Fake. It is stated in the text. One set of 1911's is obviously at least 40 years old since you cannot fake age on ivory. And actually I just went back to that auction page and looked at the enlarged photos and they are Mexican carved bone and are not Ivory. The seller is wrong in calling them Ivory. In fact I just sent him an E-mail through Ebay because that is a fradulent auction if he is selling them as ivory. Somebody is going to get ripped off. the next set you have listed is bonded fake ivory. Usually made from powder cow bone mixed with polymer resin. That is stated in the text. the next set dates to the 60's the next set is elan hunting they are also documented legal - you can view their web page also...they are documented legal. Elan Hunting buys old domestic auction and estate ivory. The final set that you have listed up there are also fake and they are Ivory Micarta. Which are resin and in no way related to natural elephant ivory. I am not starting an argument. I am just presenting facts and the the unemotional fact that I stated is that there are not 101 sellers on Ebay selling ivory grips. You said that and not me and I was clearing up a false statement. No argument wanted or intended. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

August 9th, 2007, 02:08 PM	#35
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,495	Addition: From David Boone Of Boone Trading Company. It helps to be familiar with the Domestic and International laws that are on the books these days. This should help. All credit to David Boone Of Boone Trading Company. A frequently encountered misconception is that all ivory is "illegal" indicated by that oft heard phrase "I thought ivory was illegal". NOT! The following is a summary of the international and U.S. Fish & Wildlife laws which regulate the commerce of ivory: The international trade in wildlife and plants is regulated by the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (C.I.T.E.S.) [a multinational protege of the United Nations]. Formed in 1973, the aim is to establish worldwide controls over plants & wildlife that require protecting due to declining populations. Headquartered in Switzerland, C.I.T.E.S., delegates meet every two years to review data & set new quotas to increase, decrease or maintain the level of protection on individual species. C.I.T.E.S. regulations do not control a country's internal commerce, only the international trade between member nations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- INTERNATIONAL SHIPMENTS All orders of oosik, walrus, fossil walrus, hippo or warthog ivory that are to be shipped out of the U. S. require a re-export permit which costs $30 per shipment and takes 30-45 days to acquire (considerably less time than they used to). Elephant ivory is not exportable. Mammoth and mastodon ivories do not require a permit. This $30 fee must be included with foreign orders for these ivories. Within the United States, wildlife product commerce is regulated on a state and federal level. Interstate (between states) commerce of wildlife products in the United States is regulated by the U. S. Endangered Species Act of 1972 by the Dept. of the Interior/U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service & by the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 administered by National Marine Fisheries Service. We will give a review of Federal wildlife law in the following paragraphs. Unfortunately we do not have the space to review individual state wildlife laws. Each state has a Department of Fish & Wildlife or Game Department located in the state's capitol city. We recommend that you check with your state game officials before buying wildlife products for resale (private ownership is not restricted). To find out about your state's wildlife laws, call the state Fish & Game Dept.- Law Enforcement Division in your capitol city. You can ask them about the regulations but have them mail you a copy, then read it. Wildlife agents are often an incredibly poor source of accurate info. African Elephant On the C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of African elephant ivory is not allowed internationally. It cannot be imported into or exported out of the U.S. or practically any other country of the world. It is legal to own, buy, sell or ship within the United States and there are no permits or registration requirements (those were required for importation into the U.S.). The raw elephant ivory we are selling now is all old "estate" ivory which was legally imported years ago. Asian Elephant On the U.S. & C.I.T.E.S. Endangered Species List. Importing, buying, and selling of Asian elephant ivory is not allowed internationally or interstate within the U. S. * Bowhead Whale Baleen Protected by the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Legal to sell via an exemption allowing Eskimos to hunt whales and sell baleen crafts. * Hippopotamus and Warthog Protected but not endangered. Once it has been imported into the U.S. no permit or documentation is necessary to buy or sell these ivories interstate. Hippos are dangerous animals and a serious problem in many parts of Africa. They account for more human deaths per year than crocodiles and poisonous snakes combined. Populations are frequently thinned out through government culling operations. The meat, hides and ivory are utilized. Warthogs are also very common and are hunted for food. A $30 export permit is required to ship these ivories out of the U.S. * Mammoth or Mastodon Different animals, different looking tusks, the cut ivory can look nearly the same. Commerce in this 10,000-40,000 year old ivory is completely unrestricted. A great deal of this ivory in cut form looks practically identical to elephant ivory (except for the outer layer where all the color and weathering is). Our friends at U.S. Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory have discovered a reliable indicator for differentiating between prehistoric mammoth and modern elephant ivory. Color is no indication; it is the angle that the cross grain lines bisect themselves. Angles of less than 90% indicate that it's mammoth/mastodon, angles greater than 120% show that it's elephant. This information is now being shared with customs and wildlife agents around the world so that mammoth ivory will clear customs inspections and not be subject to seizures or delays. * Sperm Whale An endangered species regulated by the Marine Mammal Protection Act. Importation for commercial purposes has been prohibited since 1973. Interstate sales of registered pre-act teeth with scrimshaw is allowed under a special federal permit. Unregistered pre-act teeth can no longer be registered and cannot be transported across interstate lines for commercial purposes. They can be sold intrastate as long as state law does not prohibit. Antique scrimshaw (100 years plus) can be sold interstate. We do not buy or sell whales' teeth outside of Washington State. * Walrus are regulated by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service under the 1972 Marine Mammal Protection Act. Raw walrus ivory predating the Dec. 21, 1972 law, tusks bearing the Alaska state walrus ivory registration tags or post-law walrus ivory that has been carved or scrimshawed by an Alaskan native (Eskimo) are legal to buy, possess, and sell. Raw walrus ivory obtained after 12/21/72 is not legal to buy or sell unless both parties are Eskimo (it is legal to own). A $30 export permit is required to ship walrus ivory or oosik (legal as per above) out of the United States. * Fossil Walrus Ivory is not restricted as it pre-dates the 1972 cutoff, it is legal to buy and sell anywhere within the United States. Shipping ivory or oosik out of the U. S. requires a $30 permit. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

August 9th, 2007, 02:54 PM	#36
NYCMedic Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New York Posts: 207	Alex said that he put the mags in that direction out of habit and he is a right handed. OOPS! At lest it's not jammed into the gun backwards. __________________ Bleeding-heart reporter: “Do you feel that violence begets violence?” Jeff Cooper: “It is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure - and in some cases I have - that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more than he can enjoy."

August 9th, 2007, 03:36 PM	#37
Kevin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 550	if it walks on four legs - I want a holster out of it.... Thats just me So far I've had ostrich beaver stingray alligator elephant shark cow (duh) horsehide lizard I'm pretty sure the people that made these holsters didn't get it from poachers. I think its my way of making PETA mad. Besides, have you seen Tyson Chickens facilities? They stack thousands of those chickens on top of each other - really gross - but we still eat their chicken... Everyone has their own opinion - and I'll respect theirs if they respect mine... __________________ www.okshooters.com

August 9th, 2007, 05:56 PM	#40
DirtDawg Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sunnyville Posts: 598	That rig would look extra sweet with a set of ivory grips! (rimshot-Runs for cover) __________________ Why is it that you always find things at the last place you looked? Because when you find something-you stop looking-Mooch Last edited by DirtDawg; August 9th, 2007 at 05:57 PM.. Reason: spelling

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