LongRider

So of the three the K&D got the best review and is only a few bucks more. Plus Kevin will modify your holster to perfectly fit any adds ons to your gun. Kevin is fitting my Dakota to accommodate the Tru Glo fiber optic sights and laserlyte laser I have added to my XD. In addition to any exotic trim and custom leather tooling you may want. Now that is a true custom leather work at an great price

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Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

SiG239

JimmyC: I would like to try out a WatchSix sometime as it looks to be a great holster. I've read the description on their website describing thats it the most basic holster they make, still looks great though. You should definitely try out a VMII sometime as the design looks exactly the same with a little more detail and tougher leather and reinforced mouth. The Dakota is a great holster but if I could only have 1 out of the 3 and price/wait time was not a consideration, the VMII would be my choice. Next time I am just going to put in an order for a VMII and if I need to add on or change the firearm for the holster I can just call and do that and just try to keep the time passing.

LongRider

Why is that? What did not not like about your Dakota? How is your VMII better?

__________________
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

SiG239

I think comparing the dakota defender to the VM2 may be comparing to totally different designs. The cochise defender would be a better comparison IMO. First the dakota's lack of trigger guard coverage and the fact that I can physically get to the trigger while it is holstered and successfully pull it, there is enough slack between the guard and leather to get a finger there. Second which is not that big of deal is the felt on the back is starting to peel off after a couple days of wear. Also the mouth of the holster closes easily which was to be expected with no reinforcement.

The VMII is better IMO because it will always be strong leather with the metal at the mouth of the holster. There is no possible way to access the trigger while holstered, it is impossible. It's also very comfortable, not quite of comfy as the dakota but the leather is thicker so that could be expected.

K-Man

If I may add something here. To my knowledge, you are the first of approximately 400 users of that holster to accomplish that while wearing the holster properly. Second, and a more likely scenario, you have abused that holster like you did the Maverick Defender you recently sent to me to be fixed/replaced. So I can understand how you could then wiggle a finger down into the holster and attempt to pull the trigger. And that being the case, why do you have it up for sale in the "for sale" section here on the forum?

SiG239

Since this message should of been a pm and not put on the public board I will post my response in this thread as well. I have in no way "
abused the holster" at all. The finger could be put on the trigger while I was NOT wearing the holster and doesnt take that much effort since the travel to the trigger is about1/4inch from the edge of the leather. It has been worn normally at 4clock and being able to get a finger between the trigger guard and leather just recently before my decision to sell. This could of been accomplished the day the holster arrived which should not be an issue. I have multiply leahter holsters and know how to care for them. This problem is not a user error but a design flaw IMO. The holster is in the same condition it was when it arrived, have you tried doing this with other holsters? it simply is not possible without excessive force. I am concerned that you think this issue that has been brought up about your holster, especially a trigger guard issue that has been brought up by others, are seemed to be taken offensively instead of noting this and possibly improving the problem. And note that in all discussion about your holsters by me this was the only thing that i had discussed as a flaw and stated it was a quality product and a great amount of time and detail were put into the holster. I have had nothing but good customer service in dealing with you in the past and would hope it could continue this way, even suggested to others to consider your holsters. I do have the laredo defender on order and still look forward to receiving it, looks to be a great OWB from the pictures I have seen.

Secondly, since I abused the maverik defender..do you not intend your holsters being put to use all the time? I did have to work the holster in my hand for awhile after wearing it for a couple weeks for hours a day and it still held the firearm like a vice grip and it simply isen't safe to carry like that. After working the leather in my hand and applying a LIGHT coat of lexol cond. it finally could be drawn but still is stiffer than desired. The other issue was the reason it was brought up to you, was the trigger while in SA not exposed?

The holster is up for sale in the section because it is in the same condition as when it arrived minus the felt pealing off slightly, which i believe was brought up on xdtalk.com so no, thats not my fault either. The pictures show the holsters condition and if the future buyer isent satisfied I would gladly send the money back.

K-Man

My response here initially was based on your comments.

With respect to the Maverick Defender I have in my hands now, it has completely lost its form and shape. It's like holding a suede-only holster. A wiser decision most likely would have been to contact either Top Gun Supply or myself and let us know of the fit issue. Be that as it may, I've agreed to replace the holster for you.

Again, you have been the only person in the approximate 400 of these holsters to express these comments. If it was a design flaw, I suspect it would have became apparent some 395 or so holsters ago. So taking that information, combined with what you've presented to me in the return of the Maverick Defender holster, I can see where you most likely have treated the Dakota Defender in the same way.

Send the Dakota to me - I'll refund your money even though you bought it from Top Gun Supply.

SiG239

Yes I agree, the maverik defender has lost some of its form but still molds to the firearm ok, I know it should of been returned initially. However the only reason the holster was brought to your attention was because of the exposed trigger while in SA, which I assume you discovered?

The dakota defender is in excellent condition which you will see when I return it to you. As described in page 1 of this thread the draw and retention with this holster was PERFECT out of the bag. I like to preserve the look of leather holsters so if everything is fine out of the bag or after wearing it for awhile there would be no reason to try to work the leather obviously, and you can see this by pictures of other quality holsters like pictured in the beginning of this thread than have been worn all day for awhile and treated with the product suggested by that holster craftsman.

I appreciate your customer service even through this discussion and hope you can see where i'm coming from in discussing the trigger guard. I hope to keep doing business with you in the future for leather needs. I'll ship the holster out tomorrow or Tuesday.

Thanks

LongRider

Seems like we both like the craftsmanship of the Dakota and Maverick Defenders which is part of why i picked K&D Holsters. I examined all of the different leather holster makers, the detail and workmanship of K&D surpassed them all. Mill Sparks do seem to make a decent product but they just don't have the detail Kevin puts into his. Others that cost way more than both, look like they are stamped out in some Chinese factory So OK I am a bit confused here, especially since you have several leather holsters. Please don't take these comments wrong.

I know a little about leather doing some minor leather work and tanning hides. Kevin pretty much form fits his holsters inside and out to the model gun you have plus any mods. Which is why he wants my laserlyte when he does my Dakota, so he can make a perfect match. Actually molded all the way thru not just tooled on the outside. So of course our holsters will arrive holding our guns like a vice to use your term. That's kind of a given. Did you try Kevin's suggestion with the wax paper and then draw it I think he says forty times or so? Repeat if needed? That is to relax the leather and make it draw properly. Basically stretch it out on the inside and smooth out all the edges from being molded to your gun. Just the width of a layer or so of wax paper is all it takes. Leather is pretty sensitive to "how" you shape it. You said you used a light coat of lexol and hand worked it. My guess is by hand-worked you meant taking it in each hand and rolling it applying pressure to shape it pushing back and forth. That is the way to soften leather. You can take buffalo hide and make it chammy soft doing that. What it does is break down the membranes in the leather, and tears connecting fibers. That is an excellent way to make leather buttery soft. It also fractures the finish that holster makers use to stiffen the leather which is not just on the exterior but absorbed into the leather. Picture fracturing glass. That is why stretching with just a few sheets of wax paper and repeated drawing is the recommended way. It does the same thing but on a subtler level on just the inside while the drawing burnishes or smoothes out the inside. The same principles apply to the trigger guard. Which brings us to your next point. You said
You are right, others have mentioned it as well, that it is not very deep or high up compared to others. Designing concealment holsters is a balancing act. Some do it better than others or just differently. You want adequate support and retention while maintaining easy concealment, comfort, draw and reholster, while being reasonably attractive. Pretty much opposite goals. I have looked at Kevin's Defenders. You are right it does not even cover the whole trigger guard but it looks like there is plenty of coverage to prevent accidentally dropping your finger in the trigger. My way of thinking is that is more than enough. Seems you had a legitimate concern and tested it to see if your finger could get the trigger while not wearing the holster. That seems reasonable. Over time it got so you could do it when you where wearing the holster. My take is with the best of intentions without meaning to, you softened it & stretched it out. Remember all it takes to adjust your holster for a comfortable draw is a layer or two of wax paper over night. Again looking at Kevin's IWB designs it looks like he took into consideration that it is to be worn inside your waist band depending on your body, belt and pants to give some of its support while offering good concealment and comfort. Testing it, by putting your finger into the holster to reach the trigger, without the support it was designed to have is what made that possible. By doing so stretched it out over time. It would be possible to do that even if Kevin added more coverage for the trigger. You would still be able to get your finger to the trigger if you were not wearing it. Adding more trigger coverage would add alot of bulk because if you look at the design it would require a strip of leather all the way across the top riding above your waist band. To me the design looks excellent. The trigger guard is there to help prevent accidents not to prevent me from deliberately trying to reach the trigger while I am not wearing it. The way I draw, trigger finger straight out parallel to the barrel until I am on target, I have no worries with the design. But I can definitely see how you came to your conclusions and your concerns. I can also see how Kevin thinks you abused the holster by stretching out the trigger guard with your finger and softening / breaking down the leather by hand working it.
From what you have said you would have preferred it if the K& D Holster had worked out for you because of the superior craftsmanship and detail. I seriously doubt you did anything deliberate or negligent on your part at all. Just trying to fix what did not seem right to you. BTW I have done exactly what you did with a custom knife sheath and a set of $500 plus leather saddle bags. That's how I know what I am saying here. I was not nearly as polite as you were about it. So of course later when I learned my mistake I had to apologize to the people. I hate doing that. Saying I was wr... wro...... mistaken. My bet is with the metal support and retention the Mill Sparks will work out great for you, since you won't need to "hand work" it and the metal keeps your finger out of the trigger guard. Maybe, later if you are up to trying another K&D Holsters. Break it in using the wax paper method and not putting your finger in the trigger guard. I bet you will love it too, Maybe by then Kevin will have a design you like better. Personally I can not wait to get mine keep pulling up pics of Dakota pics and examining it, comparing it to others. Looks perfect, though I may add some exotic trim. Shark maybe StingRay, everyone else has elephant. Wife thinks I am a goof, says I look at bikes, old trucks and gun stuff more than most guys look at porn. I tell her I don't need porn I have her but a guy can never have too many motorcycles old chevy trucks or guns. Kind of like jewelry and shoes for men. More useful too but I don't tell her that Later n Thanks for the input

__________________
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

Hotbrass

My VMII is my favorite holster too.

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Keep your powder dry