Another Holster Maker - Page 2

ELCruisr · December 13th, 2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKShooter

Looks to me like he just didn't just use the Sparks design for inspiration. Looks like he outright stole it to me.
Just my personal opinion on that.

I've made my living as a skilled craftsman, albeit in another field, for most of my adult life. Much of it running my own business. One thing I refuse to do is support the business of someone who rips off anothers creation. This is a theft of design and concept. Sorry folks, just call 'em like I see 'em and that's how I see it. This is not the only outfit stealing others work as well. None of them will ever get my business. I'll wait for the real thing.

Wal Mart mentality says I want it now and I want it cheap. Go for it, that's why we are losing our industrial base. When you want a finely crafted piece of work, go to the originator and be patient. If I want a custom pistol created and tuned by a master I'm gonna have to wait and not settle for a Raven .25.

prawls · December 14th, 2007, 09:56 AM

Looks like from JD's pics that there are some subtle differences. 1 being the double stitch going down the side of the gun pouch. 2 being the sweat shield. Looks like he's using a little thicker leather also.

Course I could be going blind ...

ev239 · December 14th, 2007, 10:59 AM

My opinion is that competition is healthy and neccessary in all business. It encourages overall quality and value. I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something. Seems like TT found a holster design that was popular and that worked. If they can create a holster using that general design and can sell it for some kind of profit which happens to be significantly less than Sparks sells theirs for then yay for consumers. Now it does look like there's some difference in construction so they aren't identical. Unless they went to the Sparks shop and literally stole the designs than they didn't do anything morally wrong. If anything it can be viewed as flattery. I think everyone will agree that the reason you pay good money for a custom holster is in part for the level of craftsmanship the custom makers offer. That's why some holster makers get $150 per holster vs. $75. Not everyone cares that much for top dollar craftsmanship. They just want a holster that works and looking pretty isn't high on the list of priorities. Count me in to that group. I use a Crossbreed SuperTuck and noone can claim it'll win beauty contests, but it allows me to stay armed when other holsters won't.

Just from being on this forum for this past year I can see that there's no shortage for the demand of holsters. With many holster makers extending out their waiting periods past the 3 to 4 month mark it's no surprise that new makers will pop up to help fill in the need.

FRT007 · December 14th, 2007, 11:11 AM

Doesn't every holster maker borrow designs from other makers? The Sparks Executive Companion is quite similar to rigs produced by Alessi, Null, etc. Who made the first pancake? Roy Baker? Only Sparks gives him credit, yet almost all sell a variation.

K-Man · December 14th, 2007, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ev239

My opinion is that competition is healthy and neccessary in all business. It encourages overall quality and value. I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something. Seems like TT found a holster design that was popular and that worked. If they can create a holster using that general design and can sell it for some kind of profit which happens to be significantly less than Sparks sells theirs for then yay for consumers. Now it does look like there's some difference in construction so they aren't identical. Unless they went to the Sparks shop and literally stole the designs than they didn't do anything morally wrong. If anything it can be viewed as flattery. I think everyone will agree that the reason you pay good money for a custom holster is in part for the level of craftsmanship the custom makers offer. That's why some holster makers get $150 per holster vs. $75. Not everyone cares that much for top dollar craftsmanship. They just want a holster that works and looking pretty isn't high on the list of priorities. Count me in to that group. I use a Crossbreed SuperTuck and noone can claim it'll win beauty contests, but it allows me to stay armed when other holsters won't.

Just from being on this forum for this past year I can see that there's no shortage for the demand of holsters. With many holster makers extending out their waiting periods past the 3 to 4 month mark it's no surprise that new makers will pop up to help fill in the need.

Do you run a business? Do you count on it as your livelihood? Have you designed a product - investing time (and money) to produce something that is safe and functional for the greatest number of people that you can? If not, I would encourage you to do so. Then you may understand why there are some of us who tend to have a great disdain for those who copy another's designs for nothing more to profit from. The "differences" cited here are really minor and are a poor excuse on the part of the holster maker to try and make the holster different from the VM2. I've even had people tell me that since the dye is a different color than what we use on the design he ripped off from us, that it made it different.

Support of these rip-off "artists," and I use that word loosely, does nothing more than perpetuate and encourage their actions.

Yes, the designs of many holsters today are influenced by those who have come before. It will always be that way, and that's where the flattery to the originator is derived from. Duplication of one's design, in the sense we're talking about here, is not flattery.

Obviously I cannot, and will not even venture, comment on how Milt Sparks arrives at their price point for their holsters. I know quality is a big factor. Have you had the opportunity to personally look at and handle a VM2? I had one in my hands just yesterday (not the first time). Have you had the opportunity to have a Tucker "Answer" in your hands to personally look at? I have. Top quality in my opinion. And, yes, I've compared it with some of the similar styles available. If you've had the opportunity to make these comparisons, then it makes it a bit easier to understand why there's a price difference - top quality vs something less than that. Quality of material and craftsmanship makes a difference in function and durability of a holster - period.

Price points for holsters are from one end of the spectrum to the other, and styles are as varied as any number of products out there. And that's where competition is healthy - not in the ripping off of another's design.

T. Kanaley · December 14th, 2007, 12:17 PM

Information overload....

Quote:

Originally Posted by ev239

I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something.

... Wow...What can I say to that? Sometimes I wish I could just ignore stuff like this. Anyway, no further comment from me and you can quote me on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRT007

Doesn't every holster maker borrow designs from other makers? The Sparks Executive Companion is quite similar to rigs produced by Alessi, Null, etc. Who made the first pancake? Roy Baker? Only Sparks gives him credit, yet almost all sell a variation.

Actually, the design the EX was based on goes further back to the old Seventrees holster company from the late 60's and 70's. It was based on Seventrees model UNS and I did give credit to Seventrees and Paris Theodore in our printed literature at the time the EX was introduced. Since our EX differed in that it had the reinforced mouthband and interchangeable belt loop it was an altogether different animal than the UNS, but it would be more than fair to compare the two.

bacchus99 · December 14th, 2007, 02:33 PM

unless sparks has a patent on the design...doesn't matter.

QKShooter · December 14th, 2007, 02:42 PM

Seventrees
I have not heard that holster name in a long, long time.

Ever since my Ernie Hill went missing from my locker.

dr_cmg · December 14th, 2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ev239

My opinion is that competition is healthy and neccessary in all business. It encourages overall quality and value. I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something.

It just so happens stealing designs and concepts is morally offensive and is already illegal. Article One, Section 8 of the Constitution of the United States of America states the following:

Quote:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

The bolded clause, Clause 8, is the basis for all US law concerning copyrights and patents. Our founding fathers thought that what is now called "intellectual property" and the safeguarding of the same was so important that they include it in the Constitution. Designs are copyrightable and since 1989 when one that is new and substantially different from all others is put on the market it is automatically copyrighted without any kind of filing. The problem for holster makers with getting the law enforced is that the cost of prosecution is more than the value that would be recovered in most instances. Just because getting relief is expensive is not an excuse for someone to go ahead and rip off someone else's design. There is no excuse for that. What the expense of relief really means is that the person who rips off the design will probably not have to pay for his crime.

For me (note I said: For me) to participate in the crime by buying a product that I know is a ripped off design is worse than the crime perpetrated by the person who took the design in the first place. This is because it there is no market for holsters that are made from ripped off designs there is no incentive for the person to rip off the design. The law of supply and demand. If there is no demand there will be no supply.

I can't be anyone's conscience, but do you really want to be a party to taking money out of a person's wallet? That's what you do when you purchase items made from ripped off designs.

One other thing. Notice in the paragraph starting with "For me" I use the term "know". If someone buys a holster that is made from a ripped off design and did not know that the design was ripped off I don't believe he is guilty of a crime. He is just a purchaser who has been duped. That doesn't put the money back into the original designer's pocket, but it does mean the purchaser did not "knowingly" participate in the theft of intellectual property.

QKShooter · December 14th, 2007, 03:11 PM

Well, I wouldn't buy one because it's an obvious blatent rip off to me.
Geesh...He didn't even try to put his MAKER stamp in an original location.

To each his own though. I have no control over if somebody else wants to buy one but, I won't.

December 14th, 2007, 09:56 AM	#12
prawls Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: VA Posts: 236	Looks like from JD's pics that there are some subtle differences. 1 being the double stitch going down the side of the gun pouch. 2 being the sweat shield. Looks like he's using a little thicker leather also. Course I could be going blind ... __________________ CARRY GUNS: S&W 638, Ruger LCP, Kimber Ultra CDP

December 14th, 2007, 10:59 AM	#13
ev239 Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 375	My opinion is that competition is healthy and neccessary in all business. It encourages overall quality and value. I find humor in other people's opinions about "stealing" designs and concepts like it's morally offensive and should be illegal or something. Seems like TT found a holster design that was popular and that worked. If they can create a holster using that general design and can sell it for some kind of profit which happens to be significantly less than Sparks sells theirs for then yay for consumers. Now it does look like there's some difference in construction so they aren't identical. Unless they went to the Sparks shop and literally stole the designs than they didn't do anything morally wrong. If anything it can be viewed as flattery. I think everyone will agree that the reason you pay good money for a custom holster is in part for the level of craftsmanship the custom makers offer. That's why some holster makers get $150 per holster vs. $75. Not everyone cares that much for top dollar craftsmanship. They just want a holster that works and looking pretty isn't high on the list of priorities. Count me in to that group. I use a Crossbreed SuperTuck and noone can claim it'll win beauty contests, but it allows me to stay armed when other holsters won't. Just from being on this forum for this past year I can see that there's no shortage for the demand of holsters. With many holster makers extending out their waiting periods past the 3 to 4 month mark it's no surprise that new makers will pop up to help fill in the need. __________________ Mine: S&W 908.....Wife's: Ruger SP101 3" ------Kahr PM9...............Sig P239 (it's her's now) ------Norinco 213...........Charter Arms Undercover Hidden Defense - Personal gun & holster designs/reviews.

December 14th, 2007, 02:42 PM	#18
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,495	Seventrees I have not heard that holster name in a long, long time. Ever since my Ernie Hill went missing from my locker. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

December 14th, 2007, 03:11 PM	#20
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,495	Well, I wouldn't buy one because it's an obvious blatent rip off to me. Geesh...He didn't even try to put his MAKER stamp in an original location. To each his own though. I have no control over if somebody else wants to buy one but, I won't. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

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December 14th, 2007, 11:11 AM	#14
FRT007 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: NH Posts: 48	Doesn't every holster maker borrow designs from other makers? The Sparks Executive Companion is quite similar to rigs produced by Alessi, Null, etc. Who made the first pancake? Roy Baker? Only Sparks gives him credit, yet almost all sell a variation.

December 14th, 2007, 02:33 PM	#17
bacchus99 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: USA Posts: 90	unless sparks has a patent on the design...doesn't matter.