Another Holster Maker - Page 4

T. Kanaley · December 15th, 2007, 06:22 PM

Please excuse me for cutting and pasting this reply as this discussion is going on now at at least 3 different forums including this one and I’m beginning to think it’s by no accident. There's a big difference between building on an existing design and outright stealing it. Most makers I know have figured out ways to make a design their own just by adding their own innovations. Course if you're not innovative then I guess you got no choice but to stick to stealing.

Back a few weeks ago in another thread, on another forum, one fella suggested that stealing someone’s ideas/intellectual property to fill a need is a “very American thing” and he’s grateful to the US economic model for providing such an enterprising opportunity. All I can say is if that statement is true and is representative of the US business model, its no wonder that many in the rest of the world hate us. Of course its also a “very American thing” not to give a crap what the rest of the world thinks either, so I guess that wouldn’t make a very strong argument.

Since it’s quite apparent from a standpoint of posting anonymously under an AKA on this forum and others, that there will be no retributions for taking the wrong side of an ethical or moral question, should that person be proven wrong. If a person feels so strongly about their convictions and believe they are right, then here’s the true acid test. Why not go to your employer first thing Monday morning and tell the person who signs your paycheck that your morality tells you that it’s perfectly ok to steal another person’s intellectual property and profit from it?

Perhaps that is what some people do for a living which may explain a lot of things, but I would bet most would be walking down the road kicking a can.

T

tabsr · December 15th, 2007, 10:51 PM

My recently approved patent cost $19,000 in legal fees to only file, not including Government patent fees, and now my defending the patent will be another $150,000 in legal cost against a company that has copied it. Two more patents pending and there will be more copiers.

Patents are too expensive for the typical hoster maker and need to rely on competitor business ethics or the buyers.

sevesteen · December 16th, 2007, 12:28 AM

Part of me doesn't like the idea of blatant copying, but I don't know how much difference is necessary to be legitimate. Should Tucker have an exclusive on Leather/Kydex IWB hybrids? Is Minotaur OK becuase they added replaceable bodies, or do they have enough other differences? I think there are a limited number of useful holster designs, so even with no intent to copy it is likely that there will be similarities. I also don't know how long a maker should have exclusive rights to a design.

Even putting intellectual property aside, I don't think Sparks (or Brommeland, or Alessi, or...) will lose any business from these sorts of copies. While the basic shape is similar, the pictures and text made it obvious that the details and overall quality just weren't there in the clone. The people willing to pay for (and wait for) a Sparks holster aren't the same ones who would wear a holster built like that, except possibly as a temp while waiting for the real thing to be delivered.

older gunner · December 16th, 2007, 02:22 AM

I've bought Hume, Uncle Mike and K&D. I'll settle for any wait time and go with K&D if possible. If I am aware of a copy-cat rip-off, I won't patronize the offender. Sometimes, however, a person might buy without realizing it is a ripped-off copy.

QKShooter · December 16th, 2007, 03:37 AM

Certainly some holster designs are quite "historic" by now and have been "up for grabs" for ages. Such as the Western style Colt SAA holsters.

I also agree that there are only so many ways remaining to mold a piece of leather into a perfectly workable holster that is 100% ideal for concealment.

That does not alter the fact that some modern day leather artisans and craftsman AKA the truly skilled holster makers have spent countless numbers of hours cutting and drawing and working out multitudes of little details in order to perfect maximum comfort, durability and concealability. They have spent a ton of time and wasted a lot of leather getting the bugs worked out. Legally somebody might be able just swipe it and run but that does not make it Kosher.

That being said most leather artists are great people (in general) and are not the sort of folks that would begrudge another holster maker an honest way to make/earn a living making holsters.
It's not easy work and it's not a "cake" way to make a living especially for an individual or small operation.
So a little bit of polite courtesy and asking some permission and giving some due credit would sure go a long way.
Also there is a HUGE difference in just using another holster makers design as inspiration and then coming up with something at least partially innovative and different --- and doing what this guy did which was basically (I'm guessing) to get hold of a Sparks holster...cut it apart and make basically what amounts to an exact traced copy.
Somehow that kinda sucks in a modestly ignorant way.

The saving grace is that the originators usually always continue to make the better product and the "Knock Off" is usually just another somewhat - and in some way - inferior knock off.
I guess that would be because if somebody is not willing invest in their own homework they're probably also of a mindset that is not willing to invest in the very best materials, equipment, and manpower.

SO exactly how much is "free for all" - and free for the taking...??? - I don't pretend to know.
But, I think when you put two rigs (by two different makers) "side by side" and one looks like a near perfect counterfeit of the other in every way, shape, and form then that is "pushing it" as far as being ethical.
Just my personal opinion. I'm sure many will still disagree with me.

Rock · December 16th, 2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKShooter

Looks to me like he just didn't just use the Sparks design for inspiration. Looks like he outright stole it to me.
Just my personal opinion on that.

Ya think? I guess some have no pride or skills to make their own design. I wouldn't be suprised if he took a vm2 apart and used it for the pattern. Nice

December 15th, 2007, 06:22 PM	#31
T. Kanaley Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 84	Please excuse me for cutting and pasting this reply as this discussion is going on now at at least 3 different forums including this one and I’m beginning to think it’s by no accident. There's a big difference between building on an existing design and outright stealing it. Most makers I know have figured out ways to make a design their own just by adding their own innovations. Course if you're not innovative then I guess you got no choice but to stick to stealing. Back a few weeks ago in another thread, on another forum, one fella suggested that stealing someone’s ideas/intellectual property to fill a need is a “very American thing” and he’s grateful to the US economic model for providing such an enterprising opportunity. All I can say is if that statement is true and is representative of the US business model, its no wonder that many in the rest of the world hate us. Of course its also a “very American thing” not to give a crap what the rest of the world thinks either, so I guess that wouldn’t make a very strong argument. Since it’s quite apparent from a standpoint of posting anonymously under an AKA on this forum and others, that there will be no retributions for taking the wrong side of an ethical or moral question, should that person be proven wrong. If a person feels so strongly about their convictions and believe they are right, then here’s the true acid test. Why not go to your employer first thing Monday morning and tell the person who signs your paycheck that your morality tells you that it’s perfectly ok to steal another person’s intellectual property and profit from it? Perhaps that is what some people do for a living which may explain a lot of things, but I would bet most would be walking down the road kicking a can. T __________________ Milt Sparks Holsters, Inc. www.miltsparks.com Second Best is not an option

December 15th, 2007, 10:51 PM	#32
tabsr Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 277	Patent My recently approved patent cost $19,000 in legal fees to only file, not including Government patent fees, and now my defending the patent will be another $150,000 in legal cost against a company that has copied it. Two more patents pending and there will be more copiers. Patents are too expensive for the typical hoster maker and need to rely on competitor business ethics or the buyers. __________________ "Politicians and Bureaucrats, depend very much on the complicity of their victims, and like criminals, are flummoxed when we don't play the victim role."

December 16th, 2007, 12:28 AM	#33
sevesteen Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 287	Part of me doesn't like the idea of blatant copying, but I don't know how much difference is necessary to be legitimate. Should Tucker have an exclusive on Leather/Kydex IWB hybrids? Is Minotaur OK becuase they added replaceable bodies, or do they have enough other differences? I think there are a limited number of useful holster designs, so even with no intent to copy it is likely that there will be similarities. I also don't know how long a maker should have exclusive rights to a design. Even putting intellectual property aside, I don't think Sparks (or Brommeland, or Alessi, or...) will lose any business from these sorts of copies. While the basic shape is similar, the pictures and text made it obvious that the details and overall quality just weren't there in the clone. The people willing to pay for (and wait for) a Sparks holster aren't the same ones who would wear a holster built like that, except possibly as a temp while waiting for the real thing to be delivered. __________________ The Gun is Civilization

December 16th, 2007, 03:37 AM	#35
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,493	Certainly some holster designs are quite "historic" by now and have been "up for grabs" for ages. Such as the Western style Colt SAA holsters. I also agree that there are only so many ways remaining to mold a piece of leather into a perfectly workable holster that is 100% ideal for concealment. That does not alter the fact that some modern day leather artisans and craftsman AKA the truly skilled holster makers have spent countless numbers of hours cutting and drawing and working out multitudes of little details in order to perfect maximum comfort, durability and concealability. They have spent a ton of time and wasted a lot of leather getting the bugs worked out. Legally somebody might be able just swipe it and run but that does not make it Kosher. That being said most leather artists are great people (in general) and are not the sort of folks that would begrudge another holster maker an honest way to make/earn a living making holsters. It's not easy work and it's not a "cake" way to make a living especially for an individual or small operation. So a little bit of polite courtesy and asking some permission and giving some due credit would sure go a long way. Also there is a HUGE difference in just using another holster makers design as inspiration and then coming up with something at least partially innovative and different --- and doing what this guy did which was basically (I'm guessing) to get hold of a Sparks holster...cut it apart and make basically what amounts to an exact traced copy. Somehow that kinda sucks in a modestly ignorant way. The saving grace is that the originators usually always continue to make the better product and the "Knock Off" is usually just another somewhat - and in some way - inferior knock off. I guess that would be because if somebody is not willing invest in their own homework they're probably also of a mindset that is not willing to invest in the very best materials, equipment, and manpower. SO exactly how much is "free for all" - and free for the taking...??? - I don't pretend to know. But, I think when you put two rigs (by two different makers) "side by side" and one looks like a near perfect counterfeit of the other in every way, shape, and form then that is "pushing it" as far as being ethical. Just my personal opinion. I'm sure many will still disagree with me. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

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December 16th, 2007, 02:22 AM	#34
older gunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 663	I've bought Hume, Uncle Mike and K&D. I'll settle for any wait time and go with K&D if possible. If I am aware of a copy-cat rip-off, I won't patronize the offender. Sometimes, however, a person might buy without realizing it is a ripped-off copy.