steven gruber

Kudos to the adminstration that created this thread. This helped to "connect the dots" regarding a holster problem.


Mr. Brommeland:

As of today your scorecard still reads: 0 holster and 0 refund. To describe myself as disappointed is a vast understatement. I am tired of this Forrest Gump ride to nowhere regarding this holster! I WANT MY HARD-EARNED MONEY BACK. Honestly, I am beginning to think I have better chance of getting into heaven than getting my refund. This shows a complete lack of class and respect for your customers by not promptly refunding their money when requested.
I judge people not by their best intentions but by their actions. A person can have the best intentions in the world and do absolutely nothing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Mr. Brommeland, a down-and-out pan handler on the street who was
mildly observant and had a modicum of common sense could have avoided your problem by employing the K.I.S.S. method. Stop charging the customer's credit card the moment they hang up and suspend the order-taking when running a little behind. I found out by reading this thread you were more than a year behind when I ordered in early February'07. If I had known that I could have avoided a lot of headache and heartache.
Mr. Brommeland what I want is this: a drop-dead, concrete deadline as to when MY HARD-EARNED MONEY WILL BE REFUNDED. I am fully aware you don't take correction well and rarely apologize. Tough. I also can be stubborn. Awaiting your reply............


P.S.-To all of Mr. Brommeland's support group buddies-please let your "man" speak up first before commenting. If you just can't wait send me a PM. Thank you.


"give me the good news-bad news is for peasants."
Thurston Howell III
Gilligans Island

__________________

varmonter

Wow after reading this thread(i too am in the market for a holster)
It seems like a gary bashing thread to me.
This also seems to be deserved. I don't pretend to know anything about this mans mfg issues.But being in mfg myself for over
20 years now,I Understand the trials and tribulations envolved in
running your own buisness. The quality of his product seems to be
impeccable.Really first class leathercrafting. That seems to be what i can gather from this. So here is the psych around this.People are left brained and right brain dominant .The right brain people are generally more creative and artistic.Left brain people are generally more analytical
and "buisiness"like. Gary seems to be more of the right brain school.(prone to frustration also)
There is nothing wrong with this.. but he probably should concentrate more on quality control and marketing and hire someone to concentrate on production and administrative details.
But perhaps he can't delegate.(a trait of right brain folks)
I for one would feel funny about giving someone money for a product I know i won't see in over a year. My money is spent long before my product is made.

Jaystekan

I realize that the BBB isn't ordering holsters and that you are. That sentence makes no sense and has no bearing on my question though, of course the BBB isn't ordering holsters and you are. The BBB is there to help consumers resolve conflicts and complaints with manufactures and retailers.

My question is why a person willingly accepts promise after promise after promise of a delivery date for a product they order and never take the situation to the Better Business Bureau? Thats what the BBB was set up for. You are correct, there was only 1 complaint against Brommeland in the last 36 months, and yes it was a delivery complaint. Isn't that what all of you have, delivery complaints? As in, the product is paid for yet not delivered?

I am not knocking Mr. Brommeland, or any other holster maker in particular, my post isn't directed at him or his business in particular, but at businesses that continually accept money without supplying a product in general. I am simply asking the forum members here posting their problems, Why have you not gone to the authorities, or the BBB?

The complaint against Brommeland says it was resolved, which is more than I see from the people posting here. The BBB gets results, plain and simple, it works, thats obvious from the resolved complaint. If that person kept accepting moving deadlines, kept accepting refund promises and never filed their complaint, do you honestly think they would have gotten their situation resolved so quickly?

Good intentions are one thing, results are another. The bbb works, I have used it, so I am just asking why people haven't gone that route to get results, you can even file a complaint online. 18 months seems like an overly excessive wait for a product, even a custom made product. I am simply asking why people keep giving a business chance after chance to make good on a deal, without saying enough is enough and contacting an organization specifically created to address problems like this. Posting in a forum is a good way to vent and to share your troubles, but in the end, it doesn't really amount to much. The bbb can and does get results, and quickly.

So in summary, Why hasn't anyone gone that route after 18 months, 2 years, 4 deadlines, 3 promises of a refund, etc.... I see the term "Sheep" used quite a bit on these forums to describe people who don't take the responsibility of their own protection into their own hands, it is also used to describe people who blindly follow the rest of the flock and believe everything the media and government tells them. How is believing false promises of the businesses mentioned in this thread any different from the rest of the sheep in the world?

__________________
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

cdwolf

I have been round and round with this in my head many times even in the last few days.
I want my product I paid for and will try the BBB route.
Worse case I get what I got = nothing

Ti Carry

Jaystekan,

That is a good post and well worth consideration by the many that are still going though issues with all of this.

The problem until recently with the allotment of this thread was all of us were "muzzled" for a lack of a better term and couldn't express or investigate issues with their holster makers or others with issues getting product out.

As well you want to believe and support the craftsman you have chosen to make your holsters so you want to allow them time to recover from unforseen problems or what you think at the time are legit problems and you are being told the truth. We as a gun culture want to help one another out and think the best and do not want to believe what a maker is telling you is false information.

However, it is not hard to figure things out on your own over time through the forums and you are able to pick up pieces here and there and you find that putting those pieces together it doesn't add up. I said my peace on the first page of this thread and won't open another can here but I did figure it out and I at that time had no need to go to the BBB as I was given a refund without asking. Not sure the BBB wants to here that I waited 14-16 months for a holster but got a refund.

Bottom line to my point is, most that are of the gun culture do not want to believe they are being had and only want to think the best and support thus they do not seek out the BBB or anyone else to help in a situation they think is normal at the time. With reading comments all the time like "it's worth the wait" or "it takes a long time for quality, but it's worth it" or "just order something to get ya by and the hostler will be in the mail before you know it".

It's not that anyone in these situations are sheep at all, it's because we trust one another and take the advice given here and on other forums seriously. Also, these problems being heard here are of the minority not the majority of holster makers. Post's here are mainly talking about a select few that have had issues. Wait times in the custom holster business are known to be long and are generally accepted. Most makers make there dead lines or are very close to them within a few week's you just have to decide if you want to wait that long or not.

The only thing that many here can be accused of is buying all the excuses from the minority makers involved in this hook, line and sinker not of being sheep for not telling the BBB or for not going to the authorities whoever they may be. It's another matter when refunds are not being made, then that becomes stealing IMO. I haven't had that problem so it was never an issue for me.

I don't need the BBB to tell me to stay away, although, it is probably a good idea to have a trail for something like this but that is what this thread is for with the exception of not getting a refund when requested. That for sure is a BBB issue if not more depending on the amount and how long it has been. The thing is, the refunds are also a recent event and haven’t had enough time to become BBB issues I don’t think but I guess if people are pissed enough it doesn’t matter how long it’s been. Also, how many really would check the BBB before ordering a holster?

It always floors me that a business will take your money in 2.5 seconds but you can’t get your refund back that fast. More like 4-6 week’s if your lucky a lot of times which is unacceptable.


Ti

__________________
Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!

Jaystekan

TI Carry,
Good point. I wasn't implying that anyone here is a sheep. I wasn't implying that by not going to the BBB that a person then becomes a sheep. I was simply saying that we are fast to label people as sheep and point out their shortcomings, yet we have trouble seeing shortcomings and wrongdoings in our own community. I more than understand a good craftsman is hard to come by. I understand that we want to support our own inside the gun culture and that forgiveness is a wonderful thing. My point is simply that forgiveness is good to a point.

There are many fine holster manufacturers out there, however there are a few that have problems. I won't mention names, but we know who they are. After reading this thread I have seen many many complaints and even some defensive posts by friends of the craftsmen. While the man himself may be a great guy, once an order with a business is placed, when does the man become a business? My dad told me once to never mix business and friendship.

At some point, unfulfilled promises have to come to an end. At some point if a situation isn't resolved, then it must be taken to a third party for resolution. My question is, when is that point reached? I agree the BBB doesn't want to hear that you got your refund after a year and a half. However I am sure they would like to hear "I have recieved promise after promise and have nothing to show, neither refund nor product." The majority of people here have not recieved anything but empty promises. The majority of people here have even expressed that they can no longer even get in touch with certain manufacturers. That is why the BBB is there. Saying the item is worth the 18 month wait is fine for some. Saying quality takes time is fine. Let's look at the big picture. If a holster maker is 150 orders behind, and charges $100.00 per order up front. Then that holster maker is $15000.00 behind on holster orders. 15 THOUSAND DOLLARS behind seems a bit excessive to just sit back and keep listening to false promises. Eventually a person has to say enough is enough and thats where the BBB comes into play. If Ford kept selling cars they keep promising but don't deliver, how long before people raising hell?

I have read many excuses from the holster makers about leather, supply problems, phone call interruptions, etc... It seems like these shortages affect only certain manufacturers. It also seems like even during these "supply problems" these same manufacturers continued to take orders. Why would a reputable manufacturer keep taking orders not knowing how they acquire the supplies to fill the orders taken, let alone complete old orders?

It may be coincidence that the one person that went to the BBB got their situation resolved (I doubt it was a coincidence though) while the majority of posters here, none of which went to the bbb, are still in perpetual limbo with their order and/or refund. I am not trying to hit on a holster maker, I am not trying to be a troublemaker. I am simply asking why people haven't gone this route. I have used the BBB for an order online that I waited 7 months for, the wife was having some custom made frame for something. I waited 7 months on a 30-day custom order. Finally after exchanging e-mails and getting the runaround, I went the bbb route. Had my item, signed apology note, and 30% refund within 4 weeks. Anyway, I just want to know when enough is enough with this.

__________________
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Gunnutty

I did contact and file a complaint with the BBB concerning Greg Dunn of Ranger Gun Leather. They tried to contact him, receved no reply and evidently gave up. I think some others on this forum tried this route as well. Don't know what else to do.

__________________
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!

RobbW

No, I don't see bashing here. In spite of what Gary has done to many of us, I see mostly facts presented here--order dates, broken promises, non-delivery of goods and in some cases refunds. If this thread turned into a bash it would likely get shut down. The facts are speaking for themselves, though they are not pretty.

I agree it is deserved. Gary had a few understandable setbacks--but mostly he did this to himself. 2-1/2 years for an order that was promised originally in September 2005??? And then to cancel it for merely asking to fill orders in the order they were taken?? No integrity whatsoever in that transaction, or in selling to CCA when he could have been shipping to existing customers.

RobbW

As to why I didn't cancel my order within the first 2 years:


The idea of contacting the BBB never even occurred to me. Maybe because the only posts I saw concerning Gary were positive, or because the order was internet/interstate or the (relatively) small money involved (compared to a car, for example).

As to why I didn't cancel my order: first, the only posts I saw spoke positively about him. I saw nothing indicating he was doing this to many others and still taking orders and charging upfront for them. This thread with its honest feedback had not been established.

Second, it was also an issue of sunk capital. I had so much time invested in my order, and Gary kept promising "it's 2 weeks out" "it's 1 week out" "it's ready for the acrylic dip this weekend" and I wanted to believe that I could get my order faster through him than by getting in the back of another holstermaker’s line.

In reality I was in the very back of Gary's line since my order was first, but I just couldn't bring myself to admit it. I also against hope that if I were polite, he would attend to my order. I NEVER contacted him by phone and only sent 4-6 emails per year (to save HIS time for holstermaking), and all of my emails were respectful and polite. The most up-front email I ever sent him I posted here just to be completely honest to all of you about my situation--but I really don't consider that email to be out of line--just a request to fill orders in the order in which they were taken.

Maybe most importantly, he promised me $200 worth of belts for mistreating me and trying to "buy" my silence. In the end, that amounted to another empty promise, since he canceled my order and thus never made good on that promise. But that definitely contributed to my willingness to wait nearly 2-1/2 years. In October (2007), when Gary was not longer responding to emails, DC helped me get one through to him. Gary promised to have my order finished by November 1, 2007. He never made good on that promise, either. Then in late December I sent him the email I posted here and he canceled my order.

Gary said he was over 600 orders down. Guestimating that an average order might be around $250 (mine was well over $300), that's roughly $150,000. That's a mortgage(!), and we know he recently moved from FL to TN. By his own admission he was spending his time unwisely--many hours spent moderating here, trying to start up Wilderness Belts, sell flashlights, and begin a training-camp businesses, not to mention that he kept taking orders all the time--taking more money from people. To me, that suggests the primary issue may have been financial, not time for making holsters. $150,000 is a lot of money, and a heck-of-an interest-free loan. THEN, as he makes "extra" holsters, he sells them to Coal Creek Armory for money instead of using them to fill previously paid for orders. He's taking twice the money on a single holster instead of just filling the original order. Unlike Eric, whom I have a lot of respect for, Gary never came clean and admitted what was up, or why the first 18 months of customers got shafted.

RobbW

It was your post, Steve, that helped me connect more dots. I don't think this was just about time for holstermaking, although that's where it eventually ended up. By charging cards for 2 years and building up a 600+ order backlog, Gary was accumulating a huge interest-free loan from hundreds of customers. He kept producing a minimum of holsters to keep the loan floating, but there's no questions he had tens of thousands of dollars, was taking MORE orders, getting further behind, and playing fast and loose with the truth. I'm grateful this thread is helping us fill holes in our information gaps. So many things were just not making sense before we could get at the truth. Now they do.