SERPA, it isn't "unsafe", the truth - Page 5

BAC · May 7th, 2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matiki

Special pleading? Really? The basis of the OP's argument is that the holster is fine and he has two uses of it under stress to support his assertion. My position is that a lot of other knowledgeable people disagree, and the reasons why aren't arcane and mysterious. I'm not stating myself as an exception to anything, so I don't see how that fallacy applies even remotely.

-B

Blackeagle · May 7th, 2009, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matiki

So when our local PD had multiple ND's over the last decade with their Bianchi holsters, it tells us that Bianchi holsters are unsafe, right?

If the NDs were on the draw, it would be enough to make me take a look at the holsters and see if there was any way the holsters might be contributing to the problem.

matiki · May 7th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

Special pleading? Really? The basis of the OP's argument is that the holster is fine and he has two uses of it under stress to support his assertion. My position is that a lot of other knowledgeable people disagree, and the reasons why aren't arcane and mysterious. I'm not stating myself as an exception to anything, so I don't see how that fallacy applies even remotely.

-B

1. Several instructors ban Serpas after two incidents.

2. OP safely drew his weapon from a Serpa under stress twice.

3. (2) is false or is not proof because there are too few instances.

4. (1) is true because (3) does not apply to my argument.

BAC · May 7th, 2009, 02:08 PM

1) My understanding is that it was many more than 2 incidents that lead to the instructors speaking out against the SERPA. 2 NDs resulting in injured officers, perhaps, but many others that didn't involve hits.

2) OP safely drew his weapon from a SERPA under stress twice.

3) #2 is true, but anecdotal and arguably statistically insignificant given the context of the discussion. Rates of NDs associated with use of specific holsters is what we should be looking at.

4) No need to comment on. I'm fairly sure you misread my point, or that I didn't make my point clear enough.

-B

PaulG · May 7th, 2009, 02:20 PM

Similar argument: Glocks don't have a safety and have a light trigger pull. Therefore, they are unsafe. Let's all avoid using Glocks.

After all, there are MANY instances of people unintentionally firing their Glocks.

I DO think it is good to hear all sides of the argument.

BUT, then we EACH make our own decision. Suarez, Pincus, Farnum, and Ayoob will not be there when you are forced to use your gear to defend yourself.

As for me, I have listened to both sides and have decided that I won't worry about my Glock 19 in my Serpa holster.

If this combo bothers you, don't use it.

Simple.

TerriLi · May 7th, 2009, 02:21 PM

I think this has turned into other then the merits of the holster.
As to Serpa, it required more trigger finger control, but provides a wonderfully secure holster.
Its an argument alot like Boxers or Briefs. For some they just will not work, for others its the best option.
Any holster draw under stress can be dangerous and possibly cause a ND, we cant predict what messed up situation you might be in.
So can we please get back to merits, or drawbacks of the holster?

matiki · May 7th, 2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

1) My understanding is that it was many more than 2 incidents that lead to the instructors speaking out against the SERPA. 2 NDs resulting in injured officers, perhaps, but many others that didn't involve hits.

It is my understanding that there were 2 incidents which generated a lot of attention after an instructor determined it was the holster design and not the shooters. Subsequently many instructors have followed suit. It's their program, so they can do as they please.

Quote:

2) OP safely drew his weapon from a SERPA under stress twice.

3) #2 is true, but anecdotal and arguably statistically insignificant given the context of the discussion. Rates of NDs associated with use of specific holsters is what we should be looking at.

I agree. The problem is, we don't know rates.

Quote:

4) No need to comment on. I'm fairly sure you misread my point, or that I didn't make my point clear enough.

-B

Fair enough. We're on two different wavelengths today (unusual).

dnowell · May 7th, 2009, 06:05 PM

In your original post you said you had to draw twice this year - I looked through the archives and couldn't find if you had written them up. I'm always curious about how those things go down. If you're able and comfortable with it I'd really like to read the stories behind those two events. Glad they seem to have gone well - since you're still here posting.

TN_Mike · May 7th, 2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

Special pleading? Really? The basis of the OP's argument is that the holster is fine and he has two uses of it under stress to support his assertion. My position is that a lot of other knowledgeable people disagree, and the reasons why aren't arcane and mysterious. I'm not stating myself as an exception to anything, so I don't see how that fallacy applies even remotely.

-B

Allow me to clear this up. I have TWO uses of the holster under stress in a real world situation where I nearly had to kill someone both times.

I have I would estimate over 1000 draws from the same holster in training situations where I was being timed, graded and in one class, drawing and firing in a shoot house with strobe lights and loud speakers blaring gun shot noise. I have trained in stressful environments. I have, to my great misfortune had to draw for real against real life bad guys. In all of these I had no ND's.

I was at no time trying to say that the fact that I had drawn twice under stress for real proved the superiority of the design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnowell

In your original post you said you had to draw twice this year - I looked through the archives and couldn't find if you had written them up. I'm always curious about how those things go down. If you're able and comfortable with it I'd really like to read the stories behind those two events. Glad they seem to have gone well - since you're still here posting.

The first I did write up here in great detail. The second happened less than a month ago and due to the possibility of legal proceedings related to what led up to the incident, I am unwilling to talk about it in detail right now.

May 7th, 2009, 02:08 PM	#44
BAC Distinguished Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 1,994	1) My understanding is that it was many more than 2 incidents that lead to the instructors speaking out against the SERPA. 2 NDs resulting in injured officers, perhaps, but many others that didn't involve hits. 2) OP safely drew his weapon from a SERPA under stress twice. 3) #2 is true, but anecdotal and arguably statistically insignificant given the context of the discussion. Rates of NDs associated with use of specific holsters is what we should be looking at. 4) No need to comment on. I'm fairly sure you misread my point, or that I didn't make my point clear enough. -B __________________ RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed. Defensive Carry Search Tips Step 1 - Choose a subforum on right side under "Search in Forum(s)" Step 2 - Type general topic of interest in "Search by Keyword" textbox. Step 3 - Read results and refine/repeat as necessary.

May 7th, 2009, 02:20 PM	#45
PaulG Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 1,127	Similar argument: Glocks don't have a safety and have a light trigger pull. Therefore, they are unsafe. Let's all avoid using Glocks. After all, there are MANY instances of people unintentionally firing their Glocks. I DO think it is good to hear all sides of the argument. BUT, then we EACH make our own decision. Suarez, Pincus, Farnum, and Ayoob will not be there when you are forced to use your gear to defend yourself. As for me, I have listened to both sides and have decided that I won't worry about my Glock 19 in my Serpa holster. If this combo bothers you, don't use it. Simple. __________________ fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

May 7th, 2009, 02:21 PM	#46
TerriLi Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 836	I think this has turned into other then the merits of the holster. As to Serpa, it required more trigger finger control, but provides a wonderfully secure holster. Its an argument alot like Boxers or Briefs. For some they just will not work, for others its the best option. Any holster draw under stress can be dangerous and possibly cause a ND, we cant predict what messed up situation you might be in. So can we please get back to merits, or drawbacks of the holster? __________________ I know not what this "overkill" means.

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May 7th, 2009, 06:05 PM	#48
dnowell Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: USA Posts: 462	In your original post you said you had to draw twice this year - I looked through the archives and couldn't find if you had written them up. I'm always curious about how those things go down. If you're able and comfortable with it I'd really like to read the stories behind those two events. Glad they seem to have gone well - since you're still here posting.