DOGOFWAR01

Many NRA Instructors I know and have met from Wyoming, Arizona, Texas, Arkansas, Georgia, Utah, Florida, Tennessee, and Idaho say the same thing, you stated above :

# 1 - "problem is the 10 hrs per NRA course"

# 2 - "securing an acceptable person to teach the law section of PPH."

Hopefully, the NRA will read, heed, and follow through !

Every NRA Instructor, I met boils it down two words - time and legal -in a nutshell.

No value added to classes.

Thank you for your post.

DOGOFWAR01

ROB - above "hurting on trying to find a range for all the shooting"

I did some research for you

there are 79 ranges in VA -

http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/f...l.asp?State=VA

check google or yahoo maps - to find out how many are within a 4 hour drive one-way from your home - 4 hours one-way is a reasonable commute time - out in Wyoming people drive that far for a NRA class - another reason for a 8 hour class - makes one long day - 16 hours - but no expense for hotel - pack some food and eat out of the brown bag - save the $$$ for more AMMO !

Rob99VMI04

Again actually your reading what you want. The lawyer does teach courses but for a differn't group. It came down to I guess liability was a bad word more like competition.

Hears the interesting part. Your thinking that I teach these courses "Privately" all the time I don't I pass off as much training as I can to other TC's and instructors, DOGOFWAR I don't even know who you are but I've probably passed your name out a few times if your on the referral list. I teach Basic Pistol and First steps Pistol, and the passion of my life Shotgun, and then pass them off to another organinzation for PPITH and PPOTH I teach with called IWLA. They have actually got a few Lawyers (volunteers no less) who teach the legal section.

When I said we are putting one together I ment just that. We are attempting to put one together. Its not real high on the priority list of things to do in ours/My life we have many activities we are doing WOT events, Shotgun coach schools, I work here, and work at gun store with a shooting range, with Travel, NRA annual meeting coming up, and traveling to TC workshops all over the place, I do some private Pistol courses, First steps pistol and Shotgun (yes NRA Shotgun works for Concealed handgun Permits in VA) then I volunteer with some friends to teach PPITH and PPOTH at the Local Gun Club. I don't souly base my teaching ON CCW, CHP, CLP, or whatever you call it. I do alot of training with BSA and try helping them get there people trained up to be able to allow there troops to shoot. Infact I will be out finishing a shotgun/ Rifle instructor course for a BSA group that I donated 31 hours of my time too so they could get ready for BSA camp schools. Summer time I'm schedule to go to the NORTH East Regional BSA camp schools and I think that lasts over a week or so.

I don't know were you got the no lawyer from will teach the course but I really haven't bothered to look for one besides small talk at work with that one lawyer I reffered to. I know of one lawyer who does alot of stuff like this for IWLA, Piedmont, and VCDL.

From what NRA Instructors tell me; cannot any longer use a Peace Officer unless certified by a State to instruct Use of Deadlly Force.

Read the Shooting Education Update it tels you exactly who can teach the legal section.

LESSON III must be conducted either by an attorney licensed to practice law within the state in which this course is presented and who is familiar with this area of the law or by an individual currently certified to instruct this area of the law by the state in which this course is presented. NRA Certified Instructors may conduct this lesson only if they meet one of these requirements and then only in their capacity as an attorney or state certified individual, not in their capacity as an NRA Certified Instructor. It is essential to the quality of the lesson that the person conducting Lesson III be provided a copy of that portion of the Lesson Plan well in advance of the class to allow for proper prepartation and planning. NRA instructors are authorized to reproduce Lesson III for that purpose. [B]Schedule Lesson III to allow ample time for questions and answers during and at the end of this lesson. [/Band the one I talk to does it 1 time a month for a differ't organization.

Look Up Personal Protection I see 3 so far on the schedule this year.

http://www.nrahq.org/education/train...State=VA&Type=

ROB99VMI04
QUOTE:
"Actually, as of friday lawyer backed out to due to liablility concerns.
It is just as hard (maybe harder) to find a Lawyer or Law Enforcement officer willing to conduct any legal course without being extremely well compensated for their time."
++++++++
Rob: If a NRA Lawyer backed out due to liability concerns for a NRA class. Why would a non-NRA lawyer be willing to volunteer or even with pay to do the legal portion of a NRA class ?



"extremely well compensated for their time" translates into big $$$$ thereby increasing the cost of class to big bucks per person - how many $$$$ would it cost per student for say a 6 person class just to pay the lawyer .

If did not have lawyer requirment, one could do an one on one or two on one class which would be very costly if required the lawyer

Bottom Line: No NRA lawyer will do the legal portion for a class in Virigina for a NRA approved class then why would any other lawyer ?[/QUOTE]

__________________
"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." - Trooper M. Padgett

"When seconds count.....Cops Respond in Minutes"

Rob99VMI04

Thanks for the insite. Most of them are private Northern Virginia We don't translate 1 mile=60 miles an hour= 1 min of driving time. I work 1.5 miles from work it takes me 20-30 minutes to drive in in the morning traffic lights are on average 7 minutes long. I used to walk and beat my roomate who was driving his car.

__________________
"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." - Trooper M. Padgett

"When seconds count.....Cops Respond in Minutes"

Rob99VMI04

DOG,
I'm really not trying to hinder you on this I'm actually trying to help.

I called a lawyer who is on our Lawyers referral list who is in WY.
I really don't want to discuss this any further on this Forum. You have my phone number as its in the original posting for this post. I have not heard back from him yet but if you call me I will be happy to pass on what the lawyer said and give you his number since hes on the refferal list.

I did hear back from this gentleman and he said he would be happy to speak with you.

I will not post his phone number as its on our refferall list I will give it to you over the phone.

__________________
"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." - Trooper M. Padgett

"When seconds count.....Cops Respond in Minutes"

Flippinstk

Rob,

Very educated and articulate rebutal to Dogofwar. You both have good points but I'm with Rob.

__________________
Alex G.
S/A Micro-Compact .45
Virginia Beach, Va.
Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Range Officer

Rob99VMI04

Dog,
One last thing to think about. Then I'm actually done with this thread.

I hear the term "Real World" thrown around alot from instructors. I look at that and say man that guy just undermined his own training. Not to mention stepped outside of any organzation's Lesson plans.
My Co-Worker happened to be involved in one of these "Instructor Real World" Senarios. Don't worry this relates to some of your concerns.

He was a Instructor in the military actually ran an entire range. He had a new LT. having problems with keeping his finger on the trigger on his M-16 and not putting the safety on. My Co worker trained this young Lt. the Military way of gun on safe straight trigger finger. Since they had problems with this young LT. They decided to start documenting his training. While on his range my co-worker documented this Lt. doing it correctly 76 times, the Lt. went over to another range. Short story he killed another Lt. shot him straight throw the flak jacket with his M-16. At the Court Martial the investigators started with "Who trained this Guy?" Was the trainer qualified what the heck happenend. They tried to get my friend on the training that he gave this young LT. My Co-worker produced documented evidence that he had done it right ( according to the training outlined in the instructor manual) on his range 76 times, and that he should not be held responsible for giving him training out of a Military manual (lesson Plan). After they found that ok they went after the next guy whos range he was on. The point of this is you are still responsible for anybody you train. If you stick to the Lesson Plan you will be ok. Once you step outside into the "Real World Student" senarious your "Real World Liability" has just opened up your on your own. I see a problem with alot of trainers, they want to help so much they forget about how much they are helping and how much they are giving the prosecuting attorney in the law suit. I leave the legal advice and the deadly force issue up to somebody who has documented proof that they are allowed to teach it. I certainly do not have that!

On some of your previous concerns the courses are being cut down to 8-10 hours. When will it happen? I hope real soon. To answer your question I don't know. The pistol is being worked on as we speak.

Politically- I hate politics my G/F works for NRA ILA I get it 24/7. Thats something again I leave up to the professionals. I do how ever believe this. The lobbying is a defineatly a good thing because it gets the good ole American heart blood pumping, but thats not what brings the members. The members are people who probably interacted with a NRA instructor. You guys are bringing the members, and that my friend is about as political as I get.

I will post something in support but I would rather not get in a argument with a fellow gun rights advocate. I love all guns, small guns, little guns, Black guns, Pink guns (I'm having a guy at work Duracoat a gun in pink for my G/F), Big guns, Long range guns, Machine guns, Suppressed guns ( I have my own), Shotgun's Tactical and O/U's (once you go gaming you may never stop). The only reason I don't have a Mp5 or a Krink is I can't afford one. I would love a MP5 in 10 and 9mm, and a K for that matter. Not a big fan of F/A .308 or .223 I'm a big guy but have a hard time controlling it, but if your bigger than I amand can hit with it have at it my friend. I hunt with a AK as well were I live deer are generally 20 yards away and 200 yards past that is a 7-11 so for me optimally a 7.62x39mm works great!!! I'm working on a Rock River AR Zumbo Ground/Praire Dog Deanimator but I have no where to hunt praire dogs yet but I still think there cool!!! To me its not about need but want.

The membership lists will never be released, and thats a good thing. Think of the power that list has. Somebody would know every members address. I understand why you YOU want it and I support your reasoning, but what about Sara Brady having it?

PS You said this "I am a long time member of the NRA and some of the other organizations listed above, I agree with some of what these organizations do but I do not agree with all these organizations do."

I am in 100% aggreeance with you. Thats why I vote!!!


PSS You said This as well "As you stated the "NRA" mission is training. Take down two barriers to training as above (1) length of time for class and (2) lawyer ... training will be more available, easier to schedule, more frequency of classes, less cost (both in tuition, range time, if any travel expenses).

Let the "NRA" Training "light shine".
Exactly teach right out of the lesson plan and this shouldn't be a problem.

Final Note: No Nation Carry System in any shape or form or fashion. States issue. People in their States fix their own problems."

Exactly!!!!! thats why we will never bend on having anybody who dosn't have a JD or a certification to teach deadly force from their Home state teach Lesson III. States have their own what I call laws you refer to as "Problems" and have to be interpreted and taught by somebody that has documentable certifications from that state.

PSSS I'm not sure "documentable" is really a word.

__________________
"You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass." - Trooper M. Padgett

"When seconds count.....Cops Respond in Minutes"

DOGOFWAR01

ROB: I really did not know if you taught or hunt or shoot any. Good that you do but not bad if you did not.

per your post NRA lawyer backed out for "liability concerns", if an NRA lawyer is concerned about "liability concerns" ... then why would any other lawyer present the legal portion ?

the NRA refer list of lawyers:
- if the NRA does not give the information to the Instructors, either Nation wide or State by State then the "NRA light is not shining"
- this is the list I was asking to be mailed out to the "instructors", the lawyer list not the membership or instructor list
- if there are not tens of thousands of these lawyers scatter across the country, then the widespread use of PP I/O TH will never happen, the Masses of Citizens will never be trained, unless the lawyer requirement is dropped
- one lawyer here or one lawyer there does not anywhere near fill the gap in the requirement set by the NRA
- 3 classes in VA so far this year, a drip a bucket, compared to the potential, what is the population of VA ? compared to the number of people in these 3 classes ?
- with a lawyer requirement still have to schedule around one more person's schedule - the lawyer
- with a lawyer requirement probably unable to do one on one or one or two students due to cost
- with a lawyer requirement cannot do a quick schedule class, like a phone call late at night - hey instructor can you do the PP I/OTH class tomorrow ? with a lawyer answer probably NO, without a lawyer answer is probably YES

ROB QUOTE
I called a lawyer who is on our Lawyers referral list who is in WY.
I really don't want to discuss this any further on this Forum. You have my phone number as its in the original posting for this post. I have not heard back from him yet but if you call me I will be happy to pass on what the lawyer said and give you his number since hes on the refferal list.
I did hear back from this gentleman and he said he would be happy to speak with you.
I will not post his phone number as its on our refferall list I will give it to you over the phone ROB QUOTE

I will pass the above information from you on to some Wyoming NRA Instructors I know, maybe they will contact you, their decision not mine.

Final Note: No Nation Carry System in any shape or form or fashion. States issue. People in their States fix their own problems."

Exactly!!!!! thats why we will never bend on having anybody who dosn't have a JD or a certification to teach deadly force from their Home state teach Lesson III. States have their own what I call laws you refer to as "Problems" and have to be interpreted and taught by somebody that has documentable certifications from that state.

I have driven all across VA NSEW numerous times over many years, there are Interstates in VA, and up/down the Atlantic Seaboard. My post was in regard to hours of time not miles of distance.

I never suggested any NRA Instructor should or even needed to "stepped outside of any organzation's Lesson plans".

FROM ROB POST
As you stated the "NRA" mission is training. Take down two barriers to training as above (1) length of time for class and (2) lawyer ... training will be more available, easier to schedule, more frequency of classes, less cost (both in tuition, range time, if any travel expenses).

Let the "NRA" Training "light shine".
Exactly teach right out of the lesson plan and this shouldn't be a problem.
END ROB POST

NRA working on (1) length of time (2) will not drop the lawyer requirement --- then NRA light will shine, NRA PP I/O TH will not be taught Nation wide, therefore unavailable to the Masses of Citizens

Zumbo . No comment, enough said on many forums, blogs, etc ...

FROM ROB POST
Final Note: No Nation Carry System in any shape or form or fashion. States issue. People in their States fix their own problems."

Exactly!!!!! thats why we will never bend on having anybody who dosn't have a JD or a certification to teach deadly force from their Home state teach Lesson III. States have their own what I call laws you refer to as "Problems" and have to be interpreted and taught by somebody that has documentable certifications from that state.
END ROB POST

Rob: You have previously posted you supported a National Carry System .

Rob: Your linking the lawyer requirement for PP I/O TH to this National Carry System, these two are not directly related, since people travel across State borders, for moving, business, and pleasure.

Rob: As I previously stated, when PP classes first hit the streets from the NRA, there was NO lawyer or anyone else required. This lawyer or other requirement was an add on by NRA HQ.

Rob: The NRA is limiting the instruction of PP I/O TH by the lawyer requirement and implying that the students in the class do not have the ability to read the legal portion of book on their own , then do not have the ability to contact their own lawyer or govt official they trust to seek information.

Rob: for PP I/O TH, no lawyer needed. NRA HQ through the NRA Instructor has the student sign a liability waiver for the class and that they the student needs to contact their personal lawyer or trusted govt official for information about any legal information. This alone will open the doors for PP I/O TH classes across the Nation. No NRA Instructor or lawyer in class will present any portion of the legal information, then neither the NRA, the Instructor, or Lawyer are liable for any legal information - Firearms Instructors do what they are suppose to do - train personnel how to with Firearms - Safety, Operation, and Maintenance (SOM) and for PP cover the material - NRA HQ delete the lawyer or other requirement then NRA Instructors "carry on" with the NRA Lesson Plans ... simple.

Large Staffs around the world are full of "adminstrators", there are not many "operators" around anymore.

I have no doubt the NRA will not change it's position on the lawyer or other requirement and it will take years to change the number of hours for basic classes - It is the way of large staff's, adminstrators.

I have no doubt the NRA classes both basic and PP will never be taught to the Masses of Citizens or even any significant percentage of NRA members.

It is the Nature of the Beast.

DOGOFWAR01

MY POST another thread --- ROB your reply "wow".

For Instructors And The Nra Hq

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.paladintactical.com/Resea...0conscious.pdf

An outstanding article by DAVID R WILLIAMS

"IT IS FOLLY TO BELIEVE THAT AT SOME POINT SELF-DEFENSE DOESN'T BECOME OFFENSE"

"WHY DO I NOT FOCUS ON TEACHING PEOPLE JUSTIFIABLE
USE-OF-FORCE ? FOR THE SAME REASON THAT A RACING
SCHOOL DOES NOT TEACH ITS STUDENTS HOW TO OBEY TRAFFIC
LIGHTS, SIGNALS, AND SIGNS. THIS IS THE RESPONSIBILITY
OF THE DRIVER, NOT THE INSTRUCTOR."

"AT NO TIME IS IT THE INSTRUCTOR'S RESPONSIBILITY
TO ENSURE THAT THEIR STUDENTS DO NOT BEGIN TO BREAK
TRAFFIC LAWS ON THE WAY HOME FROM THEIR CLASS."

++++++++++++++++++++

ROB: you grew up in a different location and in a different timeframe than I. I can still remember when a "middle age teenager" could buy a handgun and handgun ammo, and any other firearm or ammo. When the goal was a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, and everyone more or less had a least one firearm along with cars and houses left unlocked - did you the NRA supported 1968, 1938, 1934 - if you do not know bout these years ask some you work with about twice you age or so -

DOGOFWAR01

ROB : personal protection information below, as true and as real today as it was then , the basis for what we have now and in many ways what we are going back too today. Does this need to be in NRA training - No - this is above the basic level of all NRA classes - all NRA classes are basic including PP I/O TH. Basic is very important - it is the foundation for all other to be built on top of it - Basic is for the Masses of Citizens - most who do not want anymore training other than the Basic

P.S. You like Shotguns - I like Shotguns too. Remington 870, 1100, and 11-87, both hunting and tactical kinds including night sights, flashlights, and EO TECH's. NRA has a Basic Shotgun now, maybe you should / could write up a Basic Defense Shotgun course for the NRA then later on a Basic Defense Rifle course for the NRA. Both goes hand in hand with PP I/O TH.

http://www.gutterfighting.org/Main.html

Study History - History Repeats Itself

Handgun - Knife - Stick - Hand

Articles to Read and two downloadable pdf file

Read - Think About - Re-Read - Train - Simple - Straight Forward - Combat Tested and Proven