Blackeagle

It is, but it's also a double edged sword. In real life, we generally want to move and shoot very quickly when confronted by a an assailant. However, when we aren't actually being confronted by an actual threat, I'd say it's often more appropriate to be more careful and deliberate.

One of the stages at the match I shot today provides a good example of this. You start at one end of a long hallway, behind a piece of cover, facing two targets about 20 yards away. After engaging those two targets, you move down the long hallway to a shorter cross hallway, pie the corner, and engage two more targets. Then you move down the short hallway, pie another corner, and engage the last two targets.

Now, while you're actually shooting these three pairs of targets, the pressure of the timer produces an appropriate response: shoot as quickly and accurately as possible. The problem, is that same time pressure gets applied inappropriately to other parts of the scenario: moving down the hallways and pieing the corner. Because everyone is trying to get a good time, they go running down the long hallway to try to get to the corner as quickly as possible. In real life, an assailant could pop out around that corner at any moment, and rather than sprinting down the hallway, it would make a lot more sense to move down the hall at a walking pace, probably with the gun pointed in at the corner where a threat might appear just below line of sight.

Similarly, rather than pieing the corner slowly and carefully, exposing as little of themselves as possible and watching and listening for any sign of a threat, shooters know exactly where the threats are and they just pop out far enough to engage each target. They 'pie' the corner only in the sense that they don't expose themselves to the second target before engaging the first.

I like timers for drills and relatively straightforward stages where all you're doing is shooting. You're there, the targets are there, and it's just a matter of shooting them as quickly and accurately as possible. I'm much less of a fan of the clock for longer scenario type stages where you're doing things like slicing the pie, moving, opening doors, etc. that may best be done more carefully and deliberately, rather than racing down hallways and careening around corners. Having shot a lot of untimed scenarios, I can say that just shooting while people are standing there, watching and judging your performance gets the stress level up there even without being on the clock.

Oh, I agree. As I said in my first post in this thread it's a good place to get trigger time and to get some exposure to something other than a square range environment. It's particularly good if you approach it with the idea of shooting it as much like a real defensive encounter as possible, rather than with the aim of winning the game. Throw in some good self-defense training and do some practice outside of IDPA that fills in the gaps that IDPA doesn't cover and it's even better.

edr9x23super

I used to shoot a lot of USPSA, and now just IDPA when I can get away occasionally, but all of those disciplines should be taken for what they are, just games. Here is what I gleaned from them:

USPSA - I became a Master here in 1991, competed in open division, some limited and a lot of 3-gun. The best pure shooters in the world come out of this discipline because of the competition and the amount of practice the shooters put in. If you take away all of the rules differences and just have a shooting contest based on speed and accuracy and handling a gun, a true USPSA Master or Grand Master will shoot the pants off of everybody else.

IDPA - This is a good sport, and it reminds me of the way USPSA used to be, before the advent of the equipment race, which I grew up with when Strayer, Tripp & Voigt all got together and redesigned the 1911 along with a parallel effort from the folks at Para-Ordinance. IDPA came about because overnight single stack 1911s and the rest of the practical equipment being used were rendered obsolete, and there was no medium where one could use such equipment and put it to use competitively. That and Bill Wilson and a few others were losing a lot of money to the likes of Dave Dawson, STI, SV & all of the other gunsmiths that were turning out high-cap raceguns by the dozen. But IDPA has survived, even forcing USPSA to introduce a production division so they could start bringing in new members. I was one of the generation of USPSA shooters that became disllusioned with it all and changed to IDPA and will never go back to USPSA. IDPA is a good sport if you want to start thinking about basic strategies like using cover, or slicing the pie when approaching a doorway. In USPSA, I would have gone through a door like a kansas tornado looking for a trailer park. In IDPA, there are penalties, but those don't hurt nearly as much as the paintball gun at Thunder Ranch that reminded you that you just got killed trying to game out the room you were going to clear.

My point here is that the gun games like USPSA, IDPA are just what they are - games. If you really want to learn how to survive a gun fight of any kind, that is best left to professionals, people who have actually been through such encounters themselves.......

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NC Buckeye

I am interested in IDPA partlly as a replacement for Autocrossing and while it has about as much in common with an actual treat as autocrossing does road racing, it provides a stressor that you don't get elsewhere, I plan to shoot it with my EDC rig which will allow for uncovering and drawing practice, it forces a timed response and gives me people to chase after to get better. All of which are very good.

Yes there is the law of unintended consequence. A dumb person might confuse cover and concealment (although most people don't think they can shoot at what they don't see) or rush down a hallway towards an arm assailant... but, it beats shooting at paper on a range.

Based on the 12 responses of people that may consider it now, I think my post was a success.

Miggy

The problem in that club is bad SOing and bad CoF design doing vanilla stages for the gamers. A shooters turns a corner without slicing, he gets a procedural for being stupid and if he is willing to take the procedural because the math of going fast gives him a final advantage, then you nail him with a Failure to Do Right and that will kill his dream of a first place ending. In the design front, a hallway stage can be designed to put the brakes on gamers by changing the no-shoots targets from shooter to shooter or simply placing no shoots in the worse possible angles to partially block the targets. We do this on a regular basis and it will make you slow down to scan which is which.





Again on design, Are stages designed to challenge the shooter by having them shoot in other than standing positions? Or facing irregular cover & concealment?







Combination of Near and Far targets?



Strong Hand Weak Hand drills? Shooting from sitting, laying down (face up, face down, on the side, etc)







This one is just for showing off the quality of our participants

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ranburr

This is why I quit participating in IDPA. People can blame the clubs, but it has been the same at every club that I have tried.

Manan

Hey it looks fun and i just joined the assn. Looking forward to it.

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Miggy

So, what are you shooting in a regular basis in substitution of IDPA?



Ken Hackathorn has served as a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor, Gunsite Instructor, and NRA Police Firearms Instructor. He is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor, Certified Deputy Sheriff with Washington County SO, Ohio, and a SRT member and Special Response Team trainer. Ken has trained US Military Special Operations forces, Marine FAST and SOTG units and is a contract small arms trainer to FBI SWAT and HRT. Co-Founder of IDPA.


Massad Ayoob is presently Director of the Lethal Force Institute (LFI), training hundreds of civilians and Law Enforcement personnel each year in judicious use of deadly force, armed and unarmed combat, threat management and officer survival. Additionally, he coordinates a dozen LFI staff instructors and assistant instructors in four countries. He appears selectively as a court accepted expert witness in the areas of dynamics of violent encounters, weapons and weapons / self-defense / police training, and survival and threat management tactics and principles. Massad Ayoob is a 5 gun IDPA master and shoots every month.

Ernest Langdon has more than 11 years active duty as a U.S. Marine. He is a combat veteran who has participated in military operations all over the world including Panama, Cuba and the Persian Gulf. His extensive experience as a Marine Sniper, both as a team leader and a platoon sergeant, lead to his selection as instructor and later Chief Instructor of the Second Marine Division Scout Sniper School. After returning to the Fleet Marine Force for deployment to the Persian Gulf, he was reassigned to the High Risk Personnel Course in Quantico, VA., where he served as an instructor and later Chief Instructor for over three years. As the Chief Instructor of the High Risk Personnel program Mr. Langdon was responsible for the training of over 200 students annually in advanced marksmanship skills necessary to survive a terrorist or armed criminal assault. He has a Master Class rating from the United States Practical Shooting Association and the International Defensive Pistol Association with 7 National Championship titles and 2 World Championship titles.

Jim Cirillo, formerly of the NYPD Stakeout Squad, survivor & winner many real life shootouts with bad guys and who recently died from a car accident was PPC and IDPA shooter.

I can go on posting famous instructors and even regular folk that have the infamous "Been there T-shirt" and still shoot competition because they acknowledge it is good practice.

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You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Randy Cain.

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Jumper2501

Blackeagle, where was it? I'm not looking to flame, just want to know.

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NC Buckeye

The IDPA site says the club in Gaston has them the 4th Saturday. I would guess there.

Longbow

I shoot with and am a member of our local USPSA shooting club.
I am also a certified RO for the USPSA.
We practice every Monday evening during the summer and hold a match
every third Saturday of the month.
We don't have a IDPA club here, but we do have another and brand new
public shooting range so maybe they will get one going.

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