Is this strange to you ?

DM · July 31st, 2005, 01:08 PM

I have a 13 year old son.When he leaves to go somewhere with a friend and /or that friends family - say to the mall or an out-of-town sporting event I actually make him take his Kershaw 2 1/2" folder w/pocket clip. I just look at how many kids of this age disappear every year and I don't want my kid to be one of them. He's not the type to play with it or anything like that.Actually in the 2 years I've made him take it no one has ever even noticed that he's had it.Just looking for your opinions.

rocky · July 31st, 2005, 01:28 PM

For what purpose? Possible defense or escape? I wold rather teach em martial arts than ask em to try to defend themselves with a knife and no training. Too easy for a knife to be used against ya , especially if untrained. Ya want em safe , train em to fight for escape. Elbow jabs, shin strikes ect.

P95Carry · July 31st, 2005, 07:54 PM

On balance, even if he is sensible over concealment - not sure it is best way to go - unless - he has had quite extensive training.

Successful knife useage is not so simple and as Rocky mentions, it can possibly be used against him. I am naturally all for folks having means of protection, good ones - but even if as I suspect is the case, your boy is level headed and reliable - just not quite sure here.

If you or he insist on the knife aspect then IMO he must be schooled in its useage. Other defensive techniques are good too - kids learn quick and can be very fast - a big plus when compared with my age where fast is slower

ExSoldier · August 1st, 2005, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky

For what purpose? Possible defense or escape? I wold rather teach em martial arts than ask em to try to defend themselves with a knife and no training. Too easy for a knife to be used against ya , especially if untrained. Ya want em safe , train em to fight for escape. Elbow jabs, shin strikes ect.

The very first thing I was taught about using a knife in self defense is to steel myself to the reality that I was gonna get CUT. Just resign yourself, if you get into a knife fight both parties are gonna get cut! How badly depends on training and how cool one can remain under that amount of stress. Unless you train him to absolutely MAIM an opponent, he'll likely come out on the losing side. A knife doesn't have the shock power of a gun. You might remove the perps LIVER and he'll likely not even know until he starts to lose consciousness from loss of blood. In the mere seconds between this revelation and actual bleedout, he might be able to do a LOT of damage.

If it was ME, I'd teach one or two or maybe THREE solid moves, workable in a variety of situations. For example: Get your opponent by the back of his heel and SEVER the corded tendon you find running from the heel up the rear of the calf. Yup, I'm speaking of the ACHILLES TENDON. Cut that in two and the BG won't EVER be able top stand on his own two feet ever again, unless there are some brilliant surgeons around.

QKShooter · August 1st, 2005, 01:14 AM

I sure would get him a cell phone if he does not already have one.
I think every kid (male or female) should have a cell phone these days!

I think that a knife is a valuable tool for any responsible 13 year old to carry.
If it will ever save his life or prevent a future possible abduction is another story that nobody can answer.
Maybe all that he'll ever need to use it for is to cut himself loose from a seatbelt & (for that use alone) it would be worth having.

These days of "Absolute Correctness" a 13 year old kid even carrying a knife is looked upon as a huge social taboo.
You would need to absolutely stress that he always keep it well secreted unless there was an emergency.

Also...what ARE the knife laws in your home State or local area?
He may NOT be legally allowed to carry any knife if he is underage.
It depends on where you live. I would check that out since if you "arm" him & he gets wanded somewhere & that knife is discovered then you are the responsible person.

Heck...I was using a machete & a camp knife when I was about 6 years old & so to me a 2.5 folder is not even a REAL knife....but, society thinks quite differently these days.

I LOVE ExSoldiers suggestion. That make a ton of sense to me. A bit of useful training would help.

Bumper · August 1st, 2005, 03:10 AM

+1 QKShooter

KenpoTex · August 1st, 2005, 06:30 AM

Good points everyone!

Couple of questions:
1. Does your son have any type of empty-hand SD training? (and no, I don't mean sport-type Tae Kwon Do

).

2. Does your son have any type of training for using a knife in SD?

If the answer to either of these ?'s is "no," I would definately consider getting him some instruction rather than just hoping that because he has a knife that he'll be fine. I'm not saying he shouldn't carry one (I've carried one just about every day since I was 6 or 7). Just that to use it effectively requires some training. You wouldn't carry a firearm for defense without knowing how to operate it would you?...same logic applies here.

One thing to remember, especially for someone his age, size, and strength (I'm ASSuming he's your average sized 13 year-old) is that in a violent situation the primary goals are survival and escape, not to "win" as if the situation is a competition. The difference is in the fact that operating under the "survive and escape" mindset your goal is to engage only long enough to create an opportunity to get to someone/someplace safe. In the mall, this might be a police-substation or the security office, or maybe just a store with lots of people. This applies to everyone but particularly to kids. At the studio where I train/teach we tell them that, since they're not going to be a "match" for most attackers in the physical sense their best bet is going to be to run like hell and scream their heads off. If the guy grabs them, hit them with a couple of quick strikes to sensitive areas (groin, eyes, throat, etc.) and then run like hell and scream their heads off.

ExSoldier brought up a good point with the "expect to get cut" thing. Knives are nasty, in fact, at close range I feel that they're the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. I would rather have someone stick a gun in my face (hasn't happened yet, thankfully) than have to try to disarm someone attacking me with a knife (hope it doesn't happen again). Then there's the fact that knives don't kill instantly like they do in the movies, in order to "stop" someone with a knife, you're going to have to inflict some major trauma; either damaging large muscles & tendons, severing arteries, or getting into the lungs and/or heart and even then you probably won't drop them instantly. This also raises a relevant question: is your son able physically (training) and mentally (mindset) to kill someone if necessary. It seems that the majority of people that carry weapons or train in martial-arts for self-defense never really "think through" these issues.

An effective addition (or alternative) to a knife might be an impact weapon of some sort (kubaton, koppo, etc.). Impact weapons have a better potential to "stop" (stun, K.O.) someone than edged weapons. I feel that they're also more intuitive and easier to train with. Another nice thing about impact weapons is that there are many objects that can be used as improvised weapons. In Missouri, based on the rather broad definitions in the code, any type of purpose-designed impact weapon is technically illegal. However, a small flashlight like the Mini-MagLight or even a Super-Sharpie Marker make excellent IW's (and they're innocent, I immagine he could even carry them in school).

So that's my $0.02. My advice is that, regardless of what direction you take, get him some training in something. Any increase in awareness and/or skill is a good thing. I hope I didn't come across as being critical, it's great to see a parent who has enough concern for their child's safety to actually do something about it.

Bud White · August 1st, 2005, 07:45 AM

+1 on just about everything said

Rob72 · August 1st, 2005, 11:12 AM

I guess my take is a bit different. If you are talking about the Leek, it lends itself perfectly to ice-pick stabs & jabs(no special training needed). I'm also reading that your concern is more abduction, than violent assault by person or persons his age. If that is the case, empty-hand, martial arts, etc, would be of little use against a full-grown man, mid-twenties +, whereas a couple dozen fast stabs to the lower belly/groin, or even an extended arm would be perfectly efficacious.

Dealing with an experienced street-fighter(gang banger), martial arts won't do much good, unless you've trained in a no-holds-barred-someone-going-to-the-ED-once-a-week school. I would say the biggest challenge would be getting him to the point where the draw-n-stick will be automatic. If (as I assume) he's a good kid, shivving someone would be a big social barrier to cross. If someone grabs his arm and starts heading him toward a door, is that enough to warrant that level of force? Shoving him into a car/van? He isn't being "violently assaulted" at that point, and many, many survivors of various assaults have reported that, until it was too late to respond, nothing was tripping their trigger. Kids rarely seem to fight, these days, so turning the "Beast" on/off is not as instinctive as it used to be. FYI: I also like the Leek, as it makes a painful impact fist-load for hammering.

Tom357 · August 1st, 2005, 03:33 PM

When I was thirteen I had to take a required course in "mechanical street-fighting" - basic martial arts techniques plus use of improvised weapons, like canes, umbrellas and sticks. We learned how to fall, throw, and how to defend against and trap a knife, among other things. I think that kind of a focus would be more useful than carrying a small blade.

July 31st, 2005, 01:08 PM	#1
DM Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 21	Is this strange to you ? I have a 13 year old son.When he leaves to go somewhere with a friend and /or that friends family - say to the mall or an out-of-town sporting event I actually make him take his Kershaw 2 1/2" folder w/pocket clip. I just look at how many kids of this age disappear every year and I don't want my kid to be one of them. He's not the type to play with it or anything like that.Actually in the 2 years I've made him take it no one has ever even noticed that he's had it.Just looking for your opinions.

July 31st, 2005, 07:54 PM	#3
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,468	On balance, even if he is sensible over concealment - not sure it is best way to go - unless - he has had quite extensive training. Successful knife useage is not so simple and as Rocky mentions, it can possibly be used against him. I am naturally all for folks having means of protection, good ones - but even if as I suspect is the case, your boy is level headed and reliable - just not quite sure here. If you or he insist on the knife aspect then IMO he must be schooled in its useage. Other defensive techniques are good too - kids learn quick and can be very fast - a big plus when compared with my age where fast is slower __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

August 1st, 2005, 01:14 AM	#5
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,491	A Knife I sure would get him a cell phone if he does not already have one. I think every kid (male or female) should have a cell phone these days! I think that a knife is a valuable tool for any responsible 13 year old to carry. If it will ever save his life or prevent a future possible abduction is another story that nobody can answer. Maybe all that he'll ever need to use it for is to cut himself loose from a seatbelt & (for that use alone) it would be worth having. These days of "Absolute Correctness" a 13 year old kid even carrying a knife is looked upon as a huge social taboo. You would need to absolutely stress that he always keep it well secreted unless there was an emergency. Also...what ARE the knife laws in your home State or local area? He may NOT be legally allowed to carry any knife if he is underage. It depends on where you live. I would check that out since if you "arm" him & he gets wanded somewhere & that knife is discovered then you are the responsible person. Heck...I was using a machete & a camp knife when I was about 6 years old & so to me a 2.5 folder is not even a REAL knife....but, society thinks quite differently these days. I LOVE ExSoldiers suggestion. That make a ton of sense to me. A bit of useful training would help. __________________ Liberty/Tyranny ___________________________ Ain't That A Shame! Be Happy! *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OG3u...1&feature=fvwp*

August 1st, 2005, 03:10 AM	#6
Bumper Administrator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 17,342	+1 QKShooter __________________ Bumper Administrator DefensiveCarry.com Forum Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

August 1st, 2005, 06:30 AM	#7
KenpoTex VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: SW Missouri Posts: 2,142	Good points everyone! Couple of questions: 1. Does your son have any type of empty-hand SD training? (and no, I don't mean sport-type Tae Kwon Do ). 2. Does your son have any type of training for using a knife in SD? If the answer to either of these ?'s is "no," I would definately consider getting him some instruction rather than just hoping that because he has a knife that he'll be fine. I'm not saying he shouldn't carry one (I've carried one just about every day since I was 6 or 7). Just that to use it effectively requires some training. You wouldn't carry a firearm for defense without knowing how to operate it would you?...same logic applies here. One thing to remember, especially for someone his age, size, and strength (I'm ASSuming he's your average sized 13 year-old) is that in a violent situation the primary goals are survival and escape, not to "win" as if the situation is a competition. The difference is in the fact that operating under the "survive and escape" mindset your goal is to engage only long enough to create an opportunity to get to someone/someplace safe. In the mall, this might be a police-substation or the security office, or maybe just a store with lots of people. This applies to everyone but particularly to kids. At the studio where I train/teach we tell them that, since they're not going to be a "match" for most attackers in the physical sense their best bet is going to be to run like hell and scream their heads off. If the guy grabs them, hit them with a couple of quick strikes to sensitive areas (groin, eyes, throat, etc.) and then run like hell and scream their heads off. ExSoldier brought up a good point with the "expect to get cut" thing. Knives are nasty, in fact, at close range I feel that they're the most dangerous weapon you can encounter. I would rather have someone stick a gun in my face (hasn't happened yet, thankfully) than have to try to disarm someone attacking me with a knife (hope it doesn't happen again). Then there's the fact that knives don't kill instantly like they do in the movies, in order to "stop" someone with a knife, you're going to have to inflict some major trauma; either damaging large muscles & tendons, severing arteries, or getting into the lungs and/or heart and even then you probably won't drop them instantly. This also raises a relevant question: is your son able physically (training) and mentally (mindset) to kill someone if necessary. It seems that the majority of people that carry weapons or train in martial-arts for self-defense never really "think through" these issues. An effective addition (or alternative) to a knife might be an impact weapon of some sort (kubaton, koppo, etc.). Impact weapons have a better potential to "stop" (stun, K.O.) someone than edged weapons. I feel that they're also more intuitive and easier to train with. Another nice thing about impact weapons is that there are many objects that can be used as improvised weapons. In Missouri, based on the rather broad definitions in the code, any type of purpose-designed impact weapon is technically illegal. However, a small flashlight like the Mini-MagLight or even a Super-Sharpie Marker make excellent IW's (and they're innocent, I immagine he could even carry them in school). So that's my $0.02. My advice is that, regardless of what direction you take, get him some training in something. Any increase in awareness and/or skill is a good thing. I hope I didn't come across as being critical, it's great to see a parent who has enough concern for their child's safety to actually do something about it. __________________ "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears. Matt K.

July 31st, 2005, 01:28 PM	#2
rocky Senior Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MI Posts: 13,080	For what purpose? Possible defense or escape? I wold rather teach em martial arts than ask em to try to defend themselves with a knife and no training. Too easy for a knife to be used against ya , especially if untrained. Ya want em safe , train em to fight for escape. Elbow jabs, shin strikes ect.

August 1st, 2005, 07:45 AM	#8
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Gone from Here Posts: 17,375	+1 on just about everything said

August 1st, 2005, 11:12 AM	#9
Rob72 VIP Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: OK Posts: 3,468	I guess my take is a bit different. If you are talking about the Leek, it lends itself perfectly to ice-pick stabs & jabs(no special training needed). I'm also reading that your concern is more abduction, than violent assault by person or persons his age. If that is the case, empty-hand, martial arts, etc, would be of little use against a full-grown man, mid-twenties +, whereas a couple dozen fast stabs to the lower belly/groin, or even an extended arm would be perfectly efficacious. Dealing with an experienced street-fighter(gang banger), martial arts won't do much good, unless you've trained in a no-holds-barred-someone-going-to-the-ED-once-a-week school. I would say the biggest challenge would be getting him to the point where the draw-n-stick will be automatic. If (as I assume) he's a good kid, shivving someone would be a big social barrier to cross. If someone grabs his arm and starts heading him toward a door, is that enough to warrant that level of force? Shoving him into a car/van? He isn't being "violently assaulted" at that point, and many, many survivors of various assaults have reported that, until it was too late to respond, nothing was tripping their trigger. Kids rarely seem to fight, these days, so turning the "Beast" on/off is not as instinctive as it used to be. FYI: I also like the Leek, as it makes a painful impact fist-load for hammering.

August 1st, 2005, 03:33 PM	#10
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 871	When I was thirteen I had to take a required course in "mechanical street-fighting" - basic martial arts techniques plus use of improvised weapons, like canes, umbrellas and sticks. We learned how to fall, throw, and how to defend against and trap a knife, among other things. I think that kind of a focus would be more useful than carrying a small blade. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

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