Ideas for 'improvised emergency weapons' ? - Page 2

sojourner · February 27th, 2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoFan

If you don't think about having an alternative weapon, you won't be in the mindset to use said weapon.

IMO, that statement addresses what is necessary, but not sufficient.

If you don't realistically train/practice w/ said alternative weapon, you will not build up the muscle memory and movements w/ said weapon. And you will minimize the probability for success. At least you will have some confidence in yourself. I assert the confidence is false confidence.

Just saying/thinking I can roll up a newspaper or pull out a pen out and neutralize a threat without training is like saying I have a new 1911 pistol (C&L) in a vertical shoulder rig (all never used by me) and have said/thought about how I am going to use it. I'm confident that I can use it because I talked/thought about it. It gets me in the mindset. Those thoughts are going to be leaving someone coming up real short in the event that they have to defend themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoFan

Most martial arts help with unarmed AND using what is at hand, as martial art weapons techniques are applicable to all sorts of generic weapons. The best examples are stick techniques and striking weapons (kubotas?).

They help when the MA trained person trains with those specific weapon and is prepared to use a specific weapon. Have a MA who is expertly trained in using a bo staff, and hand him/her nunchakus or sais, s/he will not be prepared to use the weapons as intended.

Thoughts?

Rob72 · February 27th, 2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

Have a MA who is expertly trained in using a bo staff, and hand him/her nunchakus or sais, s/he will not be prepared to use the weapons as intended.Thoughts?

I understand what you're saying, but it's a bit off-base with improvised weapons philosophy. With the example of bo/sai/nunchaku, you're referring to dedicated weapons systems.

Improvisationally, in essence, if you train bo, with minor differences you are quite capable with a walking stick, >3' mono-pod, etc.. Each one of us will have a slightly different take on the items available. A paper or magazine, to me, would be a minor impact device; something to distract/misdirect to open up for a good chin-jab, the afore-mentioned soda can, etc.. A pen (Rotring) can stab (face/neck), but if I only had a Bic, I would anticipate moving on to bare-hand much sooner..

Being able to visualize possibility(and having an immediate follow-through, regardless of its success) is improvisation. Carrying an "alternative device" in a non-permissive environment is "dedicating", and in that context, I would agree, at least a modicum of training is necessary for it to be relied upon. I've spent more than a few hours accessing my Inova, Rotring, keys on key-leash (HEAVY flail), etc..

I'm not going to spend hours trying various soft drinks, splashed in a sparring partner's face, to decide which drink is most irritating, which angle, etc, etc.

.....but, if someone gets in my face, at my favorite Mexican resturante, a shot of Corona might be my opener of choice.

QKShooter · February 27th, 2006, 11:29 AM

By using a thick pin to "open up" the nozzle (or the tiny spray valve hole) ~ any can of aerosol anything can be turned into a power "Squirt Gun" and used to SQUIRT the can contents...rather than spray it in a fine mist.
Depending on what exact can "of whatever" you decide to buy...the contents can be instantly blinding out to around 15'.

Good for adding a hotel or motel room advantage.

sojourner · February 27th, 2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob72

Being able to visualize possibility(and having an immediate follow-through, regardless of its success) is improvisation. Carrying an "alternative device" in a non-permissive environment is "dedicating", and in that context, I would agree, at least a modicum of training is necessary for it to be relied upon. I've spent more than a few hours accessing my Inova, Rotring, keys on key-leash (HEAVY flail), etc..

I think we agree and disagree at the same time. I feel improvising is using something that you had not thought of or planned ahead of time. A decision on an alternate device ahead of time needs to be followed up w/ practice training.

Thanks for the discussion.

Tom357 · February 27th, 2006, 03:08 PM

Let my armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.

The real trick is learning to see the weapons we have at hand in everyday objects, and how they might be employed to good use. I always travel with a plain toothbrush in a shirt or coat pocket. Makes an effective pocket stick.

dr_cmg · February 27th, 2006, 04:10 PM

In April my wife and I will be flying to California. It will be our first time to fly since 9/11 and I have been considering my options as to how to best provide some form of protection. I appreciate the ideas I have seen here. I already have pens and pencils in my kit. BTW, two sharpened wooden pencils bound together by a rubber band are much more effective than one pencil.

One item that I have come up with is an aluminum ruler. I bought one at Office Depot, it is made by Westcott and costs about $8. The description from the manufacturer is: "12 in. Heavy-Duty Anodized Aluminum Ruler Heavy-duty, durable, anodized aluminum ruler features a single beveled edge with imperial scale in 16ths, metric in millimeters. Smooth, non-rust matte finish, nonskid back grip, with steel cutting edge on second side." This thing weighs about 8 oz. and does not flex. I have been practicing using it to chop, to poke and to bludgeon. The beveled side can break the skin easily and applied properly can break an arm. The end powered by one hand or both hands does an excellent job of causing all breath to be expelled rapidly when applied to the solar plexis area. The steel cutting edge is inserted into a groove one the nonbevelled edge. This edge is 1/8" thick. The steel in the groove is 1/8" deep and 1/16" thick. It is rounded. This portioned applied with force to the head will likely render the recipient dazed if not unconcious. The ruler comes in a plastic carrier that I have glued to the back of an aluminum clipboard. I also have in my bag a wooden triangular architect's scale that I have had since high school. It doesn't weigh as much as the ruler, but being triangular in shape and of hardwood construction it too can function as a very good weapon. The clipboard is stiff and about 1/16" thick so it also could be useful. I will have some charts that I have started drawing using the ruler and the scale on the clipboard when I arrive at the airport.

AutoFan · February 28th, 2006, 07:49 PM

Ok, I see the distinction between alternate and improvised weapons. Alternate weapons are those you have thought about and hopefully trained with, while improvised are basically "oh ****, how can I use this mundane item as a possible weapon".

But I still contend that Martial Arts training in weapons is very useful if you train in short staff/cane/sai's, as items of those lengths are everywhere around us. Kubotas, a very short stick about as long as your palm is wide and long staffs/sword/spear weapon training is less useful unless you specifically plan on having items that long in your posession (like tactical flashlights and pool cues, respectively). If you can find an Escrima / Arnis school near you, join that, as they START with weapons, as opposed to almost all other MA's.

sojourner · February 28th, 2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoFan

... But I still contend that Martial Arts training in weapons is very useful if you train in short staff/cane/sai's, as items of those lengths are everywhere around us. Kubotas, a very short stick about as long as your palm is wide and long staffs/sword/spear weapon training is less useful unless you specifically plan on having items that long in your posession (like tactical flashlights and pool cues, respectively). If you can find an Escrima / Arnis school near you, join that, as they START with weapons, as opposed to almost all other MA's.

I do not believe I was disagreeing that MA training w/ weapons is good. I'm pretty proficient (at least I was) in sai and bo. I do wish I would have had access to the the filipino sticks (I think the pair of 3' sticks). My kubota is my surefire E2D.

Rock and Glock · February 28th, 2006, 11:56 PM

I saw these on another site tonight - the fella used them on dog walks to keep the Rottweilers off of his little dog, as contrasted to shooting the Rottweiler. They look pretty nice for dog walks and the lick (versus a golf club). Kind of a long "Patton" look swagger stick...

http://www.coldsteel.com/95sseries.html

acparmed · March 1st, 2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojourner

Of all the respondents sharing the vast assortment of weaponry they are packing when they cannot pack a firearm. Exactly how many have seriously (not just thought about it or performed a perfunctory 15 minutes) trained on bringing the weapon to bear from its natural position to a moving hostile target that is attempting to do them harm? My guess is that the percent is miniscule.

I really think we should not kid ourselves about how prepared we think we are. A weapon, intended or improvised, is just one part of a self defense system. Any part of the system, i.e., mental, physical and weapon, fails, then the result is the whole SD situation failing.

Having been in MA and being involved in 2A, I see a majority of the people in 2 camps. First camp: My empty hands/bo/kama/nunchacku/butterfly knife training will suffice in all situations. Second camp: My Tackleburry biggest bore handgun / largest griptilian serrated knife / E2D / cross pen is weapon will save the day and protect me.

IMO, both camps are just people deluding themselves into a false sense of security.

Who is spending a majority of the time mentally training and doing physical repetitive training on how to defend themselves w/ any weapon (hands/feet/elbows/knife/gun/ etc ....) so that the response is autonomous?

Being honest w/ myself, I know that I fall short in areas. And I am working on improving.

Anyone else care to comment?

I have to agree with sojourner.

Not only will you need serious practice to make any of these improvised weapons work, but, you have to realize that most any of these are largely a way of distracting or temporarily injuring the BG. You are still going to have to commit a full on attack in order to be successful.

Rob72 · March 1st, 2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acparmed

you have to realize that most any of these are largely a way of distracting or temporarily injuring the BG. You are still going to have to commit a full on attack in order to be successful.

True. I think as sojourner stated, we're basically agreeing. The improvisation is what you grab, as a mechanical advantage (since you're already behind the curve). If I fear for my life, I can beat you till you are "no longer a threat" with a soda can; given my preference, however, I could finish things more efficiently with a staff (cane, baton), knife, or pistol.

The "dedicated" weapon is your full-on choice. As in, can the "SD" pen I carry be used to stab repeatedly, possibly hitting bone, without breaking; am I confident enough in my physical ability to go bare-hand, and to what degree; can I access numerous "items" from a pin, on the ground, in a choke, etc.. We need to have a "battery" available, not a "single barrel", and we need to have the mindset, and physical ability, to move through the continuium.

BlueLion · March 6th, 2006, 06:26 PM

huhhhhh...strap a 50 cal to your back....

gregarat · March 6th, 2006, 08:01 PM

A 3/4 diamiter 5 1/2" top hich link for a tractor.http://www.surindraauto.com/linkage-hitch-pins.html

disko · March 21st, 2006, 12:29 AM

Who here would think that in terms of self defence weapons, a lead filled metal pipe is justifiable in all but the gravest of situations? Beware the use of a maglite in a combat situation unless its life or death. Look at the use of force laws in your state and consider this, because that's exactly what a maglite is; the batteries are small tubes of lead, contained within a metal pipe.

February 27th, 2006, 11:29 AM	#23
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 24,360	Here Is An Interesting One By using a thick pin to "open up" the nozzle (or the tiny spray valve hole) ~ any can of aerosol anything can be turned into a power "Squirt Gun" and used to SQUIRT the can contents...rather than spray it in a fine mist. Depending on what exact can "of whatever" you decide to buy...the contents can be instantly blinding out to around 15'. Good for adding a hotel or motel room advantage.

February 27th, 2006, 03:08 PM	#25
Tom357 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Richmond VA Posts: 1,017	Let my armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky. The real trick is learning to see the weapons we have at hand in everyday objects, and how they might be employed to good use. I always travel with a plain toothbrush in a shirt or coat pocket. Makes an effective pocket stick. __________________ - Tom You have the power to donate life.

February 28th, 2006, 11:56 PM	#29
Rock and Glock VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Colorado at 9,500' Posts: 4,821	I saw these on another site tonight - the fella used them on dog walks to keep the Rottweilers off of his little dog, as contrasted to shooting the Rottweiler. They look pretty nice for dog walks and the lick (versus a golf club). Kind of a long "Patton" look swagger stick... http://www.coldsteel.com/95sseries.html __________________ Richard NRA Life Member *"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."* Harry S. Truman

March 6th, 2006, 06:26 PM	#32
BlueLion Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: It Changes... Posts: 844	huhhhhh...strap a 50 cal to your back.... __________________ Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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February 28th, 2006, 07:49 PM	#27
AutoFan Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Sunshine State Posts: 1,264	Ok, I see the distinction between alternate and improvised weapons. Alternate weapons are those you have thought about and hopefully trained with, while improvised are basically "oh ****, how can I use this mundane item as a possible weapon". But I still contend that Martial Arts training in weapons is very useful if you train in short staff/cane/sai's, as items of those lengths are everywhere around us. Kubotas, a very short stick about as long as your palm is wide and long staffs/sword/spear weapon training is less useful unless you specifically plan on having items that long in your posession (like tactical flashlights and pool cues, respectively). If you can find an Escrima / Arnis school near you, join that, as they START with weapons, as opposed to almost all other MA's.

March 21st, 2006, 12:29 AM	#34
disko Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 62	Who here would think that in terms of self defence weapons, a lead filled metal pipe is justifiable in all but the gravest of situations? Beware the use of a maglite in a combat situation unless its life or death. Look at the use of force laws in your state and consider this, because that's exactly what a maglite is; the batteries are small tubes of lead, contained within a metal pipe.