"My wife won't carry a gun, what about OC"

mercop · February 5th, 2009, 04:08 PM

It seems to be one of the most common questions asked in the forums when it comes to self-defense. Usually something along the lines of “My wife doesn’t want to carry a gun, I want to get her OC, what is the best out there”.

This thinking places OC in your someone’s personal defense program in the same place that many carry a firearm. This can be a huge mistake. There are basically two reasons why women don’t want to carry firearm-
1)They don’t want to be bothered.
2)They really don’t want to hurt anyone.

Let’s look at number one, OC to be effective during a spontaneous attack situation has got to be pre-deployed. That means that it is not at the bottom of a pocket or purse. This takes constant effort and mindset to have it ready in the hand whenever in a danger area (anywhere outside the home).

Number two, use of OC without proper mindset can lead to even more violence, let me explain. Being light skinned and blue eyed OC tears me up. I have been sprayed with it in the line of duty dozens of times. Each and every time it made my eyes slam shut and my face burn. What it never did was take me out of the fight. If anything it make me fight harder. I just had to fight by touch. As we see time and time again in pistol classes people have a very bad tendency to stand still while shooting, this is even more so when deploying OC. What will your wife be able to do if the guy gets his hands on her?

Besides state and local laws there are lots of issues with the carry of OC. The first is that in today’s security climate they may be prohibited in courthouses, some forms of transportations and academic institutions. So depending on life style and environment you many not be allowed to carry your OC. Of course this changes for everyone, what percentage of your life will you need to leave your primary force option at home or in your vehicle? Then when you do carry it, will you have the presence of mind to pre-deploy it?
OC is good for two things, bridging and transitioning. Bridging is using a tool to move to remove yourself to a safe location or at least to a safer one. Transitioning is using a tool to get you to another tool. OC can be very effective when backed up by a firearm and quite possible save you from having to shoot someone. In police use of force OC is usually very low on the list right after verbal persuasion. Don’t use it as your primary force option. A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this-
Verbal commands
Impact tools (flashlights, pens, kubatons, stylus)
OC
Firearms/Edged Weapons

The impact tools that are mentioned can be carried in even the most prohibitive environments and can allow you to bridge or transition with little training as long as the mindset is correct. OC, firearms and knives can be added depending on lifestyle and environments.

David in FL · February 5th, 2009, 04:44 PM

I'm not sure that I understand why you'd place impact weapons before OC on the hierarchal use of force scale for the average civilian......

The standoff provided by OC seems to be a critical advantage to me, especially for smaller, physically weaker victims. If a BG closes after OC has been deployed, it also seems that impact weapons might be more effective after the BG has had a face full of OC.......again, especially given the nature of the victim in this case.

What am I missing?

mercop · February 5th, 2009, 04:54 PM

Because you want your lower force options to be-
Things you can carry anywhere like govt buildings and airports.
Things that are not effected by environmental conditions like rain and wind.

David, I am in FL right now. We have had some decent winds over the last few days, not sure if you have as well. I would not want to deploy OC with these winds to have it blow back in my face.

After the BG had a face of OC you should be running the other direction calling 911 when you feel save to do so, not using another weapon unless he has a hold of you or is blocking your exit.

David in FL · February 5th, 2009, 05:32 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're looking at the hierarchy of force then.

I don't necessarily think that you have to employ one item/technique before moving to the next. As an example, if a BG pulls a knife on me, even if I'm carrying striking weapons or OC, I'm going straight for my handgun. So if the victim's preference is to deploy OC to take advantage of the standoff that it provides, but because of conditions at the time it doesn't make sense to do so, she hasn't lost anything as the BG closes. But if the victim allows the BG to close to striking/contact range, she's given up one of the major advantages that OC can provide. Especially with smaller, weaker victims, contact with the BG should be avoided if at all possible, no?

Of course you're absolutely right about wind and blowback. That's why I prefer a stream nozzle over a spray and why IMHO anyone who carries OC should practise with it.....under all conditions, as well.

mercop · February 5th, 2009, 05:40 PM

We are on the same page, it is a use of force cycle/continuum. Of course a deadly weapons should be met with deadly force whenever possible.

As far as being able to deploy OC during a spontaneous or stand off situation is wishful thinking for the most part. It needs to be in the hand, reaction side hand if you are carrying a firearm.

Daywalker · February 5th, 2009, 06:22 PM

Aloha guys,

Sorry to butt in.

I have been sprayed as well, even swallowed the sh*t...NOT GOOD!

However, like the legendary Mercop, it pissed me off even more and I could still see as my eyes were swelling shut and "attack" for a good amount of time before my throat finally got so swollen, I thought I was gonna die.

I have seen many people who got hit by OC go through MAJOR anxiety attacks, thinking they were gonna die...literally. SO, IMHO, if you are gonna use OC, ya better know how to detox an innocent bystander, or even yourself in the event of catching a blast...

Then again, I have seen guys go through OC as if totally unaffected and I SAW the blast hit them square in the face. Hmmmmm, interesting are the differences in "thresholds"...

AGAIN, know how to decontaminate if you're gonna carry OC to God forbid, USE one day.

Welp, that was my worthless 2 cents mercop and David in FL...

God bless and neat thread!

dukalmighty · February 5th, 2009, 06:22 PM

Quit your job,then hire yourself as her bodyguard and pay yourself every month from your/her bank account

swaggs · February 5th, 2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daywalker

Aloha guys,

Sorry to butt in.

I have been sprayed as well, even swallowed the sh*t...NOT GOOD!

However, like the legendary Mercop, it pissed me off even more and I could still see as my eyes were swelling shut and "attack" for a good amount of time before my throat finally got so swollen, I thought I was gonna die.

I have seen many people who got hit by OC go through MAJOR anxiety attacks, thinking they were gonna die...literally. SO, IMHO, if you are gonna use OC, ya better know how to detox an innocent bystander, or even yourself in the event of catching a blast...

Then again, I have seen guys go through OC as if totally unaffected and I SAW the blast hit them square in the face. Hmmmmm, interesting are the differences in "thresholds"...

AGAIN, know how to decontaminate if you're gonna carry OC to God forbid, USE one day.

Having been sprayed for training purposes, and spraying others for the same purposes, I'll confirm Daywalker is 100% correct. Our training consists of being sprayed in the face, then being "attacked," focusing on weapons retention, backing off the attacker, prying an eye open, drawing your [red] gun, and ordering the attacker to the ground. I include all this to say that not only is it possible to fight through a direct hit of OC, but it's possible (for some) to retain tactical and cognitive abilities.

I've seen people who couldn't function after the spray, and I've seen people go totally bezerk and swing at everything in sight. One thing I have noticed though is repeat exposure tends to result in being able to work through the effects more easily.

While it has it's place in certain situations, I'd be incredibly hesitant to trust my well being, or that of my loved ones, to OC

flyby · February 12th, 2009, 08:37 PM

Yes Quality is imperative with OC (a weapon I've actually had to use defensively)..good to use lateral movement(sidestep) after spraying as they may lunge to where they last saw you ..there are several good brands out there but Fox-Labs (2oz flip-top) is hard to beat imo..(links on)...
YouTube - pwned by Fox labs pepper spray oc 5.3 million scoville units
http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWE-kBpyiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqK-...eature=related

LongRider · February 15th, 2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyby

Yes Quality is imperative with OC (a weapon I've actually had to use defensively)..good to use lateral movement(sidestep) after spraying as they may lunge to where they last saw you ..there are several good brands out there but Fox-Labs (2oz flip-top) is hard to beat imo..(links on)...[/url]

Absolutely right deploy the best available and you are correct FOX Labs is the best OC available. I have seen FOX Labs fail, meaning I have seen it properly used hit the assailant dead in their face and fail to have ANY effect. Personally I do not use a gun that fires most of the time, for the same reason I do not use or recommend OC

February 5th, 2009, 04:08 PM	#1
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	"My wife won't carry a gun, what about OC" It seems to be one of the most common questions asked in the forums when it comes to self-defense. Usually something along the lines of “My wife doesn’t want to carry a gun, I want to get her OC, what is the best out there”. This thinking places OC in your someone’s personal defense program in the same place that many carry a firearm. This can be a huge mistake. There are basically two reasons why women don’t want to carry firearm- 1)They don’t want to be bothered. 2)They really don’t want to hurt anyone. Let’s look at number one, OC to be effective during a spontaneous attack situation has got to be pre-deployed. That means that it is not at the bottom of a pocket or purse. This takes constant effort and mindset to have it ready in the hand whenever in a danger area (anywhere outside the home). Number two, use of OC without proper mindset can lead to even more violence, let me explain. Being light skinned and blue eyed OC tears me up. I have been sprayed with it in the line of duty dozens of times. Each and every time it made my eyes slam shut and my face burn. What it never did was take me out of the fight. If anything it make me fight harder. I just had to fight by touch. As we see time and time again in pistol classes people have a very bad tendency to stand still while shooting, this is even more so when deploying OC. What will your wife be able to do if the guy gets his hands on her? Besides state and local laws there are lots of issues with the carry of OC. The first is that in today’s security climate they may be prohibited in courthouses, some forms of transportations and academic institutions. So depending on life style and environment you many not be allowed to carry your OC. Of course this changes for everyone, what percentage of your life will you need to leave your primary force option at home or in your vehicle? Then when you do carry it, will you have the presence of mind to pre-deploy it? OC is good for two things, bridging and transitioning. Bridging is using a tool to move to remove yourself to a safe location or at least to a safer one. Transitioning is using a tool to get you to another tool. OC can be very effective when backed up by a firearm and quite possible save you from having to shoot someone. In police use of force OC is usually very low on the list right after verbal persuasion. Don’t use it as your primary force option. A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this- Verbal commands Impact tools (flashlights, pens, kubatons, stylus) OC Firearms/Edged Weapons The impact tools that are mentioned can be carried in even the most prohibitive environments and can allow you to bridge or transition with little training as long as the mindset is correct. OC, firearms and knives can be added depending on lifestyle and environments. __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

February 5th, 2009, 04:44 PM	#2
David in FL VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,327	I'm not sure that I understand why you'd place impact weapons before OC on the hierarchal use of force scale for the average civilian...... The standoff provided by OC seems to be a critical advantage to me, especially for smaller, physically weaker victims. If a BG closes after OC has been deployed, it also seems that impact weapons might be more effective after the BG has had a face full of OC.......again, especially given the nature of the victim in this case. What am I missing? __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

February 5th, 2009, 04:54 PM	#3
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	Because you want your lower force options to be- Things you can carry anywhere like govt buildings and airports. Things that are not effected by environmental conditions like rain and wind. David, I am in FL right now. We have had some decent winds over the last few days, not sure if you have as well. I would not want to deploy OC with these winds to have it blow back in my face. After the BG had a face of OC you should be running the other direction calling 911 when you feel save to do so, not using another weapon unless he has a hold of you or is blocking your exit. __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

February 5th, 2009, 05:32 PM	#4
David in FL VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,327	Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you're looking at the hierarchy of force then. I don't necessarily think that you have to employ one item/technique before moving to the next. As an example, if a BG pulls a knife on me, even if I'm carrying striking weapons or OC, I'm going straight for my handgun. So if the victim's preference is to deploy OC to take advantage of the standoff that it provides, but because of conditions at the time it doesn't make sense to do so, she hasn't lost anything as the BG closes. But if the victim allows the BG to close to striking/contact range, she's given up one of the major advantages that OC can provide. Especially with smaller, weaker victims, contact with the BG should be avoided if at all possible, no? Of course you're absolutely right about wind and blowback. That's why I prefer a stream nozzle over a spray and why IMHO anyone who carries OC should practise with it.....under all conditions, as well. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

February 5th, 2009, 05:40 PM	#5
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	We are on the same page, it is a use of force cycle/continuum. Of course a deadly weapons should be met with deadly force whenever possible. As far as being able to deploy OC during a spontaneous or stand off situation is wishful thinking for the most part. It needs to be in the hand, reaction side hand if you are carrying a firearm. __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

February 5th, 2009, 06:22 PM	#6
Daywalker Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Hawaii, USA Posts: 54	Aloha guys, Sorry to butt in. I have been sprayed as well, even swallowed the sh*t...NOT GOOD! However, like the legendary Mercop, it pissed me off even more and I could still see as my eyes were swelling shut and "attack" for a good amount of time before my throat finally got so swollen, I thought I was gonna die. I have seen many people who got hit by OC go through MAJOR anxiety attacks, thinking they were gonna die...literally. SO, IMHO, if you are gonna use OC, ya better know how to detox an innocent bystander, or even yourself in the event of catching a blast... Then again, I have seen guys go through OC as if totally unaffected and I SAW the blast hit them square in the face. Hmmmmm, interesting are the differences in "thresholds"... AGAIN, know how to decontaminate if you're gonna carry OC to God forbid, USE one day. Welp, that was my worthless 2 cents mercop and David in FL... God bless and neat thread!

February 5th, 2009, 06:22 PM	#7
dukalmighty VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: texas Posts: 6,383	Quit your job,then hire yourself as her bodyguard and pay yourself every month from your/her bank account __________________ I like Poetry,Long Walks On The Beach,And Poking Dead Things With A Stick

February 12th, 2009, 08:37 PM	#9
flyby Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 76	Yes Quality is imperative with OC (a weapon I've actually had to use defensively)..good to use lateral movement(sidestep) after spraying as they may lunge to where they last saw you ..there are several good brands out there but Fox-Labs (2oz flip-top) is hard to beat imo..(links on)... YouTube - pwned by Fox labs pepper spray oc 5.3 million scoville units http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWE-kBpyiI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHqK-...eature=related __________________ For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36

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