psychophipps

This is another excellent point to repeat the mantra, "Officer, this person made me fear for my life and I had to defend myself. I'm not trying to be some punk pleading the 5th here, but we both know that I shouldn't say anything else without an attorney present."

2edgesword

The threat is not over simply because you are holding the knife.

If the attacker takes off after you have gained control of the knife then you're not justified in chasing him down and stabbing him.

But what if the attacker continues the fight he could very well be attempting to regain control over the knife? Would the attackers attempt to regain control of the knife be considered a further attempt to use deadly physical force against you?

Are you justified in shooting someone if they are attempting to disarm you of your firearm? I believe the answer to that question is yes and I would imagine the same would hold true with respect to a knife you have taken from a knife welding attacker.

kpw

In PA, if he is no longer a viable threat then you are not justified. I know 2 people that have done jail time for going beyond what the law interprited as a justified response. Nobody died in either incident and I believe they were both probably in the right for what they did but the DA didn't see it that way.

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2edgesword

"In PA, if he is no longer a viable threat then you are not justified."

This could become the difficult issue when in the middle of an altercation versus during a discussion of what occurred at trial. If the attacker is running away then it is absolutely clear that using deadly physical force against them (chasing them down and stabbing them in anger) is not justified.

On the other hand if the attacker continues the attack it could be difficult or impossible to determine what their intentions might be. Yes, they are unarmed at the moment but the continued struggle may be an attempt to retrieve the knife to finish the job they started. Or maybe they are looking to take possession of what they perceive as there property (the knife) and run.

The person attacked, who is pumped up with adrenaline and fear, doesn't have the luxury of quiet contemplation to consider all the potential possibililities. What may seem reasonable and apparent during a discussion of the incident a year later during the trial may not have been so apparent during those seconds when you are in jeapardy of losing your life.

MinistrMalic

IMAO, if he has attacked you with a knife then he is using deadly force against you. You can't know if he has other weapons on him, or whether his intent has changed. If he attacked you with a knife, at least in my jurisdiction you would still reasonably be in fear of your life and justified in using lethal force against him.

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SamRudolph

I guess if you like murder one charges, then you should pick A) Plunge the knife into the back of your defenseless attacker, whom you disarmed and subdued.

IANAL BUT

Your right to use lethal force in self defense ends the instant your life or limb are no longer being threatened. If you have taken away your attacker's means of threatening your life, yours is no longer threatened and you may not use lethal force. If he is still fighting, then disengage and leave. If you are capable enough to disarm a knife-wielding attacker bare-handed, you should be capable enough to subdue him without stabbing him.

2edgesword

"whom you disarmed and subdued."

There was no mention of the attacker having been "subdued". If the attacker has been subdued then it would be impossible to justify using lethal force against him.

However, the fact that you've disarmed the attacker for the moment (he might try to regain control of the weapon or have another weapon) doesn't mean the attack has ended or that the lethal force threat no longer exist.

Accessing when a lethal force threat exist or when the threat has ended is not always cut and dry, especially in the heat of an altercation and when the words "believe" and "reasonable" are part of the legal equation of determining justification.

Rob72

I will say this: if you are facing an individual with a weapon, and have no back up, if you have time to ponder, "Does this threat still exist...?", you are either the immaculately conceived reincarnation of Bruce Lee, and you can smoke at least two cigs while whipping the agressor's butt...or you're moving too slow, just got shanked and don't realize it yet.

Or the other guy is too slow and stupid to be much threat to anyone other than himself, in which case you'd better leave, because he'll likely be back with a gun, friends or both.

Successful civvie disarms are pretty darn rare. Most cons have a hell uva lot more real fighting experience.

Don't over-analyze.

Hopyard

In a way my question is as much about training issues as about legality.

Do you practice the disarms with the assumption that the fight isn't over and a strike will be the next move of the general flow of the situation, or do you practice breaking away. (I know, work on both.)

I was looking at the video posted here a couple of days ago; the one where there is a back of the hand block of the knife followed simultaneous with a palm down arm bar so the guy falls forward where you can step on his other hand and get away. In that video it is pretty clear you could pull a gun and fire because the assailant though down, maybe with hand mashed and jaw bashed by your knee, got up, though he is still holding the knife. A completed disarm is a different situation.

So, when working on defending against a knife, where do (should) you put your effort, on ending the threat with the assailant's own knife, breaking away and maybe having to use your gun. I'm sort of thinking take the dang knife and throw it as far as you can and run like h. Though frankly that isn't as self-satisfying as plunging it into something soft.

Hopyard

Yup, that sounds like the voice of experience indeed.

I once had an itinerant Mexican man come to my door selling oranges. He wanted to show how good they were so he took one from the box and pulled a knife, and within about a second and 5 or 10 quick slices, the orange was peeled. I decided it might be healthy to buy the oranges.