Queensidecas

Some other thoughts on stabbing vs slashing. In terms of pure physics stabbing is more economical in terms of energy spent and power delivered as compared to slashing. Another plus is it is much harder to disarm someone who is stabbing and it takes much less techique and traing to stab.

This discussion reminds me of a popular forum topic on sword forums. The question posed was if we were all knocked back to the stone ages and you were forced to combat with ancient weaponry what would you use. Japaneese style swords, broadswords, spears, knives, maces..blah blah. At anyrate almost everyone agreed that assuming equal level of training, the short spear is the most leathal weapon ever devised by man. The economy of motion for a fast spear thrust is unequaled and the lack of training to be efficient with a short spear is staggering. The range and economy of motion put the short spear at the top of the list.

J Bowen

true it does take less training for stabbing motions.
Most people that use a knife with little or no training
naturally tend to use stabbing motions. The most basic
is the over the head (Ice pick grip) type stabbing motion
swinging down on someone. That type of motion seems like it would be
easier to be disarmed though. What I like and also fear with knives
is they are so easily hidden even when open and in someones hand
if held right.

unloved

That seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

mercop

Easier to stab offensively. We are talking about defensively.

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psychophipps

One of the issues that I think that mercop is bringing up, and he is quite correct for doing so, is that slashing is typically much more easily demonstrated as a defensive strike than a stab. What with the natural tendency for slashing while backpedalling when pressed, you even see this in saber fencing techniques, due to the aforementioned increased vitals coverage by the limbs you can further see his point.
Stabbing, on the other hand, is more difficult to state as a defensive technique due it's inherently more aggressive nature. Yes, you might have been defending yourself from an assault, but you still have to find a way to describe climbing straight up the side of your assailant's body with a long string of punctures as "I had no choice and I was in fear of my life". Everyone who has studied a striking art, let alone a stabbing-based blade system, knows that you don't get much out of your techniques if you use them as you step backwards, after all.

Janq

Yep. ^^

I've remained mum on this thread since noting when the OP first posted and there were no other responses, yet.
Simply because the answer is there is no all and any situations answer (!). Quite simply it very much depends.


There is now though a lot of theory posted here as well as links to other sites with more theory.

But bottom line...
* Who here has ever even once been in a fight on the streets against aggressors, and NOT as in a class/course against people who'll have lunch with you, and been stabbed or slashed?
* Of same very specific condition who has attempted to _defend_ against as much (taking the offensive is of no regard here for us), and did you fail or succeed?
* Who here has been first person witness with your own eyes to either of the above, and I mean start to finish not oh I saw a guy a block distant sitting/lying in a pool of his own blood?

When ever this subject comes up be it here or elsewhere I note there are always a strong positioning and voice from persons who have been through X, Y, or Z class/course training.
Persons who learned this or that offense and anti-offense as via the military, fighting against equally trained/skilled war fighters equally armed with tools akin to short swords.

None of this 'training' stuff though is of any _REAL_ use to civilians. Average Joe and Jane Citizen who is not walking the streets carrying a KaBar or a machete or a anything but at best a ~9" total length (blade and handle) as unfolded 'box cutter'.
Persons on the street that we might encounter are very much largely going to be untrained and have not been through a formal course/class. Street combatants training comes from street interaction and observation as well as applied practice...on the street.
They do not act nor react like folks who will have lunch with you at the end of your course/class.

Don't take my word for it though...

Just ask any person who actually has been stabbed/slashed, has been in the position of offense and/or defense, and/or has been direct first person witness to such violence as on the streets and/or in a prison (not jail nor 'detention center').

The answer to this question is simple and basic.
It's both and either.
The singular goal as on the streets, not in a combat class/course or military theater, is to STOP the actions of your attacker. How to best or most efficiently dispatch that person as in his/her ability to remain locomotive or even respirate is of low concern (!).

When being threatened or attacked by a person with any edged weapon (broken bottle, knife, pointed stick, etc.) the primary thought in the mind of the person at the opposite end is to either 1) Gain Distance to ESCAPE and/or 2) How can I make this person STOP being a threat right now!
If cutting him/her in the face with a slash by way of a razor blade will do that job then there is nothing further to discuss. This occurs, real world. If doing same with a carpet knife will get that job done then task complete. If stabbing that person in the neck, chest, or soft abdomen with a broken bottle will do it then job done.

Ask anyone who has really been under stress confronted with as much whether they were worried about being either stabbed or cut, they will tell you simply they just did not want to be _CUT_.
Bottom line.

Rather than discussing this amongst yourselves who largely have never ever seen such a situation thanks to having lived lives that are largely normal and simply average, it would be better and best to seek out the input of those who have been there and done that.
I guarantee you those persons will not have a specific camp to plant feet in. The answer is and has long been, both....and whatever else is necessary to make the attacker stop.

- Janq has been for real not in theory stabbed, defended successfully against slashes and stabs, and been first person witness to others undergoing same in win, lose, and draw efforts...all of and amongst the streets with real people who wanted my own and other folks lunch

P.S. - This is no different than anything else from using a firearm defensively to dance to sex.
It's nice to hear commentary from folks who have thoughts and theories on how things might go...But always at the end of the day bottom line what is most useful and pertinent and valuable is feedback from persons who have had both feet in directly and literally. Those persons first person reports and views are worth a hundred other persons theories on a matter. Recall how we all talked about this and that theory in HS as related to sex, and how off base and incorrect those were who had no more _real_ experience than we did as virgins.
This subject matter is no different, and is just as individual circumstance specific.

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unloved

I wasn't really looking for an answer. I was more trying to get people thinking and start a discussion.


I've been stabbed. My experience is what led me to the opinions I hold. It's why I think stabbing with the type of knife most of us carry on a daily basis might not be the best option. A 3/4" wide, 2" deep wound did not affect my ability to function in the slightest. In fact, I did not even know that I had been stabbed until several minutes after I had sustained the wound.

I've been slashed. That hurt more, and I saw it coming. A 3" long, 1/4 inch deep wound that, again, didn't really affect me.

As I said in my OP, I've seen that people who've spent a lot time training to stab, don't when pressed. That's just in force on force training. What does everyone think they might do when faced with a real knife?

psychophipps

I've had a knife pulled on me once, but he was a complete idiot and I simply kicked it out of his hand before he could do anything with it. Think of the movie cliche of, "Ha ha! Who's a tough guy now, *insert random dis here*?" quickly followed by getting schooled by his opponent. It was so sad that my adrenaline didn't even fire up during the incident.

I have no issue at all believing your anecdote about your knife wounds. That sort of stuff happens with gunshots, even from the much vaunted .45 ACP, all of the time.

When forced to retreat, people will resort to slashing irregardless of their training for the instinctive reactions mentioned above. Stabbing while retreating is an exercise in futility. However, that is largely a training issue, IMO, rather than a lack of stabbing being an effective tool.
Typical knife force on force scenarios, if mercop's excellent training example videos are any indicator, start with the defender backpedalling from an armed or unarmed assailant while attempting to ready their weapon and it goes from there. Good to go. However, I don't typically see the defender passing a slash or thrust and JUMPING ON THAT MOTHER-BLANKER, TAKING HIM DOWN AS YOU STAB HIS NECK, DOING A DOUBLE KNEE DROP ONTO HIS HEAD AND FLOATERS WHILE PINNING HIS ARM TO HIS SIDE AS YOU MACHINEGUN YOUR KNIFE INTO HIS ARMPIT/HUMERAL ARTERY AREA AND NECK WHILE DELIBERATELY DOING EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO KEEP HIM FROM FIGHTING BACK.

Aggression. Speed. Absolute Brutality.

So yeah, if you're just trying to get away from the guy with nothing else in mind then a stab isn't your best bet. This is exactly why Shivworks teaches their grab-n-stab techniques and leaves the legal stuff on your head with what is probably a pretty insane non-fault waiver. You can't expect a defensive-type encounter to be resolved effectively while backpedalling and using point-based techniques. You need to jump that guy, or grapple them close if you're already engaged, while you basically Lesnar vs Couture them with a knife if you want the most bang for your buck with point-driven techniques.

cockedlocked01

This has been an interesting thread. As has been mentioned, there's a difference between attacking & defending.

Stabbing, as has been mentioned, particularly in our Penal institutions, stabbing is an attacking motion usually designed to end that persons life. It tends to be more accurate & the wound is generally deeper than with a slashing attack. Plus, it usually used for more pinpoint attack of an organ, which is why they're typically fatal.

I think when one's asking about stabbing vs slashing, I'm assuming they're talking about being at the receiving end of an attack. If that's the case, slashing is "usually" the response by most people despite their training. The reason being that if you're behind the "8-ball" (The attack has come & your only response is realistically to not get stabbed/cut), then your fine motor skills are most likely going to go out the window. If you're fortunate enough to not be disabled by the attack & you're fortunate/quick enough to be able to get your knife, your natural response is most likely going to be to slash. That's mainly because you're probably going to be retreating, not attacking.

There's a big difference between a planned attack & a sudden defense. I'm not even talking about a planned defense, but a OH Shiite! I'm being attacked.

Also, everyone's different, but it also depends on the situation. I've been stabbed & personally been in several situations along with being witness to (Being part of) attacks (Firearms & knife, BTW) & it really depends on your perception at the time.

I found one is able to possibly stab (Or do some form of a fine motor skill attack) when they weren't the 1st one responding to an attack (Where it's not as imminent). If you're the 1st person being attacked (Or 1 of several, but there's no time to do anything bu react), you're most likely going to do what comes naturally to you & that is most likely to get out of the way & flail (Slashing, moving, etc). Now, maybe the dynamics might change enough that one doesn't feel as imminently in danger, then they might be able to change their tactic & actually stab.

Again, as has been said, there's no clear cut answer. Stabbing is usually more accurate, devastating, & debilitating...usually. But with stabbing, comes opening yourself to a possible counterattack, but again, if that person is now finding themselves on the receiving end, their most likely response will be to slash, not stab.

Just do an excercise with a friend/partner. Try to stab effectively while retreating.

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rainyday

I tend to agree that stabbing doesn't seem very defensive in nature. Nevertheless I'm going to add an experience an instructor of mine had in his instructor class with the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

They brought out a pig carcass and had all the students slash and stab at it, then they put a cammie blouse on it and let them slash away. These are generally some pretty big guys in this class, my instructor included, and he said the wounds through the blouse amounted to not much more than scratches. I'm not sure but I'd bet they were using the big ol' m9 bayonet that is easy to come by in Quantico, and if that isnt going to slash through a shirt effectively, I doubt an average folder will fair much better.

Just a thought.