MitchellCT

I think anyone interested in defending themselves against a knife would be better served by getting to the gym to lift heavy, run fast, learning how to grapple with uncooperative people intent of hurting you, and learning how to KTFO people once you have achieved positional dominance.

Go find a defensive knife seminar.

Go futz around with some like minded people with a rubber knife.

Go run, lift & hit a heavy bag.

Defending yourself against a knife is not terribly complex. It's just a lot of work to put in that can be very taxing, time consuming, stressful and humbling.

Then again, the payout of not getting an HIV infected needle in your chest is kinda nice too...

psychophipps

My issue is most people, especially martial artists, don't want to spend all day jumping their training partner and D-Blocking them after a simple slap parry. They want to do some Fancy Dan block to inner wrist cut with a trailing blade to a neck slice in one smooth arc and then do some "cool" takedown with at least three more steps than really has to be there. Believe me, I've tried many a time to do "real" knife fighting and/or knife defense and they simply aren't interested to see how much their current techniques suck.

AutoFan

I had a kind of interesting instructor once, showed us how to defend against knife attacks with our hands and feet, then told us we'd get cut anyways, most likely. If we didn't want to get cut, "run faster or grab a stick and hit them from farther away". Sounded right to me.

Queensidecas

I can agree that stabbing while retreating isnt effective but it doesnt need to be because you are retreating and therefore should be running your ass off. Unless they have a gun or friends, they arent going to be able to stop you from getting away unless you are truly cornered in which case you have to mow them down with stabs and go through them to get away. Standoffs and "knife fights" are not self defense. Even with a stand your ground law you dont want to stand your ground squaring off with knives. Just get away by any means necessary.

Also assuming you are like me and dont have (or care to spend) 10 years training in knife combat, the prison style stabbing attack and defense methods are the most usefull in a home invasion scenario because you are going to do much more damage without the skill to use "bio mechanical" cutting techniques and other such flair. I also just dont see people slashing through leather jackets and other layered clothing in a home invasion scenario feasible at all and especially not without significant training and something very large like a Kukri. A karagambit through a leather jacket, flanel shirt and a tee-shirt? I dont think so, its just gonna get hung up unless you have the skill to go for the face and I think your average joe will just get disarmed or taken down flailing his knife out in the open. The only reason I have a knife defense plan in a home invasion scenario is to buy me time to get to my gun and I think it will work well for that. I also agree with everything written on this page about the matter: http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

MitchellCT

Can I loan you a clue about the legal side of use of force in self defense?

The actual techniques used is less relevant than the context in which they are used and the justification for the force itself.

"This isn't a defensive technique..."

"That is offensive, and if you do that you aren't defending yourself..."

Get real. That is intelectual pontification making a very simple subject entirely too complex.

Of all things, learning to use a knife in self defense should be simple. Humans have been killing each other with knives since prehistoric times (the 1980's...).

People are getting hung up on the location of cuts or stabs, the number of the wounds...feh.

Focus more on being able to understand your use of force rules and how they relate to situations as they evolve - because that's more important than if you biomechanical cut him or went UFC + KNIFE on someone.

Knowing WHEN to use a knife is more relevant in the aftermath than HOW you used it.

2edgesword

A lot has been said pro and con regarding stabbing versus slashing so I won't add to that discussion. IMHO the nuiances of slashing versus stabbing in a deadly force situation takes a major back sit to the idea of trying to inflict as much damage as possible in the least amount of time to shutdown the attack as quickly as possible. That can take the form of slashes, stabs, combinations of the two in addition to empty hand strikes, knees, elbows and kicks.

Learning to do this doesn't require ninja like skills that takes a decade to develop but it does require getting off the couch, training and periodic practice.

Regarding biomechanical cutting, what looks so delicate becomes instinctive IF you train. It doesn't require surgical precision. If your surgeon's required "precision" amounts to the length of your forearm, bicep, tricep or quad I'd recommend finding another surgeon.

If you carry a firearm for self-defense train to use it as such. If you carry a knife and view it as a self-defense tool train in how to use it as effectively as possible. I am not a believer that one sizes fits all but I am a believer that regardless of the method you choose (standard grip slashing, reverse grip stabbing, REM slashing/stabbing, etc.) talking about the benefits of that method don't make-up actually training in that method.

No one can guarantee you will have access to your knife if you're attacked. Neither can they guarantee you'll have access to your gun or your best round house kick. You add as many tools to your self-defense tool box as is practical given your circumstances with the idea that what you are doing is increasing your odds should an attack come. No guarantees.

The issue of justification requires consideration whether you are doing a hip throw or sweep (potential lethal and could be characterized as the application of deadly force in court, especially if the person throw splits their head open on the concrete curb and dies) or drawing your Glock.

"Of all things, learning to use a knife in self defense should be simple."

Learning to use a knife, just like learning to use a gun or any other weapon, most effectively requires training and practice.

__________________
Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF

PaulG

Well said.

That's the real problem, isn't it?

We want to practice things we do well and we want to avoid things we suck at. Unfortunately, its the things that we suck at that will get us killed.

I have been trying to revamp my thinking on this subject to the point where I work out with combative fitness trainers; I train with MMA guys; grapplers; crazy monkey stuff, etc.

The result is that I get my head handed to me on a regular basis. But little by little, I'm getting better.

My plan on a knife attack or any other kind of attack is:

1) Avoid it if at all possible
2) If it ends up being unavoidable, I want to have the physcial skills to defend my self as violently as possible to allow me to get the heck outta Dodge whenever that option presents itself.

MitchellCT - Knowing when may be more important than knowing how AFTER the incident is over, but I think knowing how is pretty darned important during the attack.

Otherwise, you may not be around for the AFTER.

Just my 2 cents.

__________________
fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

MitchellCT

It's not that hard.

Run, lift, train.

Get as strong as you can, get as fast as you can, get as fit as you can.

Learn how to hit, throw people around, what to do when the fight goes to the ground, how to get back up, how to access and retain a weapon during a fight.

Just train the hell out of it.

psychophipps

You really want to tick off a MMA guy when you're rolling around on the ground? Just follow the simple rule of, "When in doubt, sprawl." If you get in a position where you think they're going for something that you don't like, just spread out your base (any base you can manage at the time) as far as you can and go rigid on them. Drives those guys nuts!

Under the great stress of the moment there is a very good chance that you'll keep machinegunning your assailant with a knife even after they've been rendered legally a non-threat. With a handgun or other ranged weapon you often have the luxury of seeing your assailant go down at a distance which cues you to end the engagement of that assailant. If you're rolling around on the ground, screaming your head off at your attacker, cutting and stabbing everything you can reach, and blood squirting all over the two of you then there is a correspondingly more difficult chance of knowing, in the heat of the moment, that this guy is done fighting and is simply flopping around in his death throes or is no longer a legally-defined threat while you machinegun a blade into a soon-to-be corpse.

With a coroner's full report in front of them and the stigma of using a knife in the first place, it won't be hard for a DA to see some mileage in running you over with the legal process if this happens to you. It's happened a lot more than you realize, and it's happened to people with a lot of training as well. All it takes is one extra poke or slash than absolutely necessary, in the opinion of a probable untrained idiot in using anything for self-defense let alone a knife, and you're in for one heck of a rough ride.

MitchellCT

I keep trying to interject some semblance of logic into a conversation here.

My fault.

I shouldn't have offered a point of view on the aftermath of a use of force situation that comes from formal legal education, admission to the bar and the practice of law - in addition to training in daito ryu aikijujutsu kodokai & pekiti tirsia kali.

You are right. I am wrong.

I apologize.

I will probably learn something if I just ask some questions...

Can you tell me the basis of your opinions which seems to be the basis of your opinions on the handling of a use of force incident in the court system?

Police work? The practice of law? Reading Ayoob articles? Reading Law Journals & appellate cases? Watching TV & You-tube?

See, the reason I'm asking is that your statements don't quite jive with what I've learned, and I need to reconcile my inadequacies and my lack of education with feedback from people who have a clue - something I figured I had, but I may not...

Help me.