Stabbing v. Slashing - Page 7

mercop · November 5th, 2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

Question for the experts:

Wouldn't slashes or jabs to the face be more likely to illicit retreat of a VCA because of the psychological element?

No part of MCS including IET relies on pain compliance or psychological response. When you think about how hard it is to judge response from Central Nervous Disruption, Circulatory Disruption, and structural disruption, things we all have in common you realize that using pain compliance and psychological stoppages have no place in a legitimate survival mindset. They more than anything physical differ greatly from person to person. Consider that many here work on our mindset that we will continue to fight no matter the level of pain or how scared we are you realize that you can never count on anything to be 100% but some things are not to be counted on at all. Just my $.02- George

psychophipps · November 5th, 2009, 11:19 PM

I agree completely with George on this one. Pain compliance is the worst thing in the world to rely on because your typical assailant is almost guaranteed to have recently taken any number of legal and/or illegal substances that deaden pain either by design or as a side effect. Psychological is a non-starter for the same reasons above. If it deadens pain, it's definitely going to be altering their state of mind and often towards the more aggressive end of the scales.

mercop · November 6th, 2009, 10:37 AM

Few people these days are not on any type of RX meds, and those you are in conflict with are most likely going to have alcohol and street drugs in their system. If they engage in this type of activity often they are likely to have more experience and inoculation to the chaos then those they attack.

Also consider this when you hear someone talking about doing joint locks with Kubaton or pressure points on with their fingers. There is no place for this BS in legitimate personal protection. You have got to train to move through people in anticipation of there being more than one.

When you think about defending yourself and you think weapons, you need to think open hands.

If you think about open hands, you need to think about weapons.

- George

psychophipps · November 6th, 2009, 12:52 PM

Or as my Jujitsu Sensei used to say: Defend, Counter, Control, Destroy. Lots of people are tempted, and trained, to skip one or more of these steps and it's a drastic mistake to do so as you have demonstrated in many a video and/or photo, George.

mercop · November 8th, 2009, 08:20 PM

Just got back from another great Edged Weapons class in Quakertown PA. We had our usual group plus some motivated first timers. We finished up today's IET course with the Folder into Fight Drill. You put on headgear and a mouth piece and are armed with a Endura training folder, the rest goe like this-

Panic Push where you simulate trying to distance yourself from you attacker.

Then you grab a hold of two sticks held by another student and go back and forth for 30 seconds to get your heart rate up. When you have 10 seconds left I start tagging you while wearing boxing gloves. We had some advanced students in the class so they get the heat turned up a bit. This accomplishes a few things, the first is inoculating the student to what it feels like to have your bell rung. The second is it will allow them to articulate why they would use a knife to defend themselves even against some open handed attacks.

At the end of the 30 seconds they let go on the sticks and it is one on one. They try to gain the time and distance needed to deploy their folder and I do everything I can to stop them from doing it. Once they get the knife deployed they land some some cuts and we call time.

Something I noticed today as I turned up the intensity is that the good guy was crouching lower and lower from being struck, when he did get his knife out he was very low and just about all the cuts I suffered started above the knee and funneled into the crotch and ripped out. When they felt the hook was set they stood up and I attempted to pull away. It gives me the willies even in training.

We also worked on the use of Inverted Tactics with the stick and open hands. Again, it was a great class. Should have some pics and video up this week.- George

unloved · November 8th, 2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercop

We had some advanced students in the class so they get the heat turned up a bit.

Yes we do.

Quote:

This accomplishes a few things, the first is inoculating the student to what it feels like to have your bell rung.

It works too. I took my first course with George 8 or 9 months ago. I left with a splitting headache. I didn't get hit anywhere near as hard back then as I did today. I feel just fine now. I'm able to maintain focus while being punched in the head, and effectively defend myself against a guy who's 2" taller, about 60 lbs. heavier, much more knowledgeable, and experienced than I am. I watched three other students (two of them newbies) who are much smaller than I am do the same.

Quote:

The second is it will allow them to articulate why they would use a knife to defend themselves even against some open handed attacks.

Wearing headgear, with an attacker wearing boxing gloves, I saw stars a couple of times today. That's my friend, trying to teach me something. What do you all think a bare knuckled punch to the side of your unprotected skull, from someone who's really trying to hurt you, would do to you?

psychophipps · November 8th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Just a quick question, George. What happens if your student doesn't carry folders? Seems more than a bit non-optimal to stick some poor slob with a folder they've barely held when their EDC is a fixed blade. If a student has a drone for their fixed blade, can they use that in the class during drills instead?

LongRider · November 8th, 2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercop

Something I noticed today as I turned up the intensity is that the good guy was crouching lower and lower from being struck, when he did get his knife out he was very low and just about all the cuts I suffered started above the knee and funneled into the crotch and ripped out. When they felt the hook was set they stood up and I attempted to pull away. It gives me the willies even in training.

That is a short mans tactic that works well. Make the big guys bend over to hit you. Puts them off balance and allows you to get inside and under. It also limits their target area. Most of my facial scars are on my forehead and eyes. I've broken alot of knuckles with this forehead. Big guys that learn to fight crouched can gain significant advantage as well. Once mastered lower center of gravity will allow them to be more agile. Their strikes will have greater power. They can get inside/under easier and it causes the opponent to under estimate their reach. When they do come UP they do so with devastating force. Glad you had a good day

mercop · November 9th, 2009, 11:05 AM

Inverted is our strategy and edge is a tactic. Students in the weeks class saw the continuity between open hand, stick, and knife using the inverted strategy.

The natural resting position of the hands are down at your sides, just in front of the pocket seams. That means when standing relaxed against another person and then bringing your hands up you are in a position to access targets from their groin to their armpits. You are also powerful here. As soon as your elbows get away from your body to the sides or the front you are off balance and loose power. We counter attack from underneath like a shark attacks a seal.

We also practiced all the drills this weekend with our eyes closed to replicate a common robbery scenario where you are OCed before the attacker makes physical contact to take your belongings. Using the Inverted Strategy and body mapping students are able to accomplish all the techniques they can with sight.

The reason we use folders exclusively during the class is that it-
1) Adds stress
2) Ensures that everyone can fall back on using a folder even if they EDC a fixed blade.
3) Allows me to work deployment drills on a line with people doing all the same thing, if they had fixed blades they would be coming from everywhere. People also find out real fast that there are only a few suitable primary deployment options for fixed blades and we don't have time to cover them all during this course.

Next year we are going to start doing our Advanced Edged Weapons course in which people will need more gear and be allowed to carry wherever and whatever they want. By that time they will have worked bugs out and have a better idea of what works in reality.- George

ItsMyRight2 · November 9th, 2009, 11:22 AM

Neither one will do you any good unless you hit a vital organ.

I believe stabbing to be the best but only if you have a target and not just trying to poke a bunch of holes in someone. If you look at the way prisoners do it they usually go for the same spots being the neck,and other organs. You would have to know the basics of the human anatomy to be a good stabber.

November 6th, 2009, 10:37 AM	#63
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	Few people these days are not on any type of RX meds, and those you are in conflict with are most likely going to have alcohol and street drugs in their system. If they engage in this type of activity often they are likely to have more experience and inoculation to the chaos then those they attack. Also consider this when you hear someone talking about doing joint locks with Kubaton or pressure points on with their fingers. There is no place for this BS in legitimate personal protection. You have got to train to move through people in anticipation of there being more than one. When you think about defending yourself and you think weapons, you need to think open hands. If you think about open hands, you need to think about weapons. - George __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

November 8th, 2009, 08:20 PM	#65
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	Just got back from another great Edged Weapons class in Quakertown PA. We had our usual group plus some motivated first timers. We finished up today's IET course with the Folder into Fight Drill. You put on headgear and a mouth piece and are armed with a Endura training folder, the rest goe like this- Panic Push where you simulate trying to distance yourself from you attacker. Then you grab a hold of two sticks held by another student and go back and forth for 30 seconds to get your heart rate up. When you have 10 seconds left I start tagging you while wearing boxing gloves. We had some advanced students in the class so they get the heat turned up a bit. This accomplishes a few things, the first is inoculating the student to what it feels like to have your bell rung. The second is it will allow them to articulate why they would use a knife to defend themselves even against some open handed attacks. At the end of the 30 seconds they let go on the sticks and it is one on one. They try to gain the time and distance needed to deploy their folder and I do everything I can to stop them from doing it. Once they get the knife deployed they land some some cuts and we call time. Something I noticed today as I turned up the intensity is that the good guy was crouching lower and lower from being struck, when he did get his knife out he was very low and just about all the cuts I suffered started above the knee and funneled into the crotch and ripped out. When they felt the hook was set they stood up and I attempted to pull away. It gives me the willies even in training. We also worked on the use of Inverted Tactics with the stick and open hands. Again, it was a great class. Should have some pics and video up this week.- George __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

November 9th, 2009, 11:05 AM	#69
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 608	Inverted is our strategy and edge is a tactic. Students in the weeks class saw the continuity between open hand, stick, and knife using the inverted strategy. The natural resting position of the hands are down at your sides, just in front of the pocket seams. That means when standing relaxed against another person and then bringing your hands up you are in a position to access targets from their groin to their armpits. You are also powerful here. As soon as your elbows get away from your body to the sides or the front you are off balance and loose power. We counter attack from underneath like a shark attacks a seal. We also practiced all the drills this weekend with our eyes closed to replicate a common robbery scenario where you are OCed before the attacker makes physical contact to take your belongings. Using the Inverted Strategy and body mapping students are able to accomplish all the techniques they can with sight. The reason we use folders exclusively during the class is that it- 1) Adds stress 2) Ensures that everyone can fall back on using a folder even if they EDC a fixed blade. 3) Allows me to work deployment drills on a line with people doing all the same thing, if they had fixed blades they would be coming from everywhere. People also find out real fast that there are only a few suitable primary deployment options for fixed blades and we don't have time to cover them all during this course. Next year we are going to start doing our Advanced Edged Weapons course in which people will need more gear and be allowed to carry wherever and whatever they want. By that time they will have worked bugs out and have a better idea of what works in reality.- George __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

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November 5th, 2009, 11:19 PM	#62
psychophipps Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 383	I agree completely with George on this one. Pain compliance is the worst thing in the world to rely on because your typical assailant is almost guaranteed to have recently taken any number of legal and/or illegal substances that deaden pain either by design or as a side effect. Psychological is a non-starter for the same reasons above. If it deadens pain, it's definitely going to be altering their state of mind and often towards the more aggressive end of the scales.

November 6th, 2009, 12:52 PM	#64
psychophipps Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 383	Or as my Jujitsu Sensei used to say: Defend, Counter, Control, Destroy. Lots of people are tempted, and trained, to skip one or more of these steps and it's a drastic mistake to do so as you have demonstrated in many a video and/or photo, George.

November 8th, 2009, 10:35 PM	#67
psychophipps Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 383	Just a quick question, George. What happens if your student doesn't carry folders? Seems more than a bit non-optimal to stick some poor slob with a folder they've barely held when their EDC is a fixed blade. If a student has a drone for their fixed blade, can they use that in the class during drills instead?

November 9th, 2009, 11:22 AM	#70
ItsMyRight2 Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: SouthFlorida Posts: 72	Neither one will do you any good unless you hit a vital organ. I believe stabbing to be the best but only if you have a target and not just trying to poke a bunch of holes in someone. If you look at the way prisoners do it they usually go for the same spots being the neck,and other organs. You would have to know the basics of the human anatomy to be a good stabber.