unloved

Queensidecas' thread got me thinking and I didn't want to hijack or derail so...


I remain unconvinced that stabbing is a viable technique for most of us. It seems (judging from photos I've seen) to take an awful lot of stab wounds to stop someone.

I've noticed in training that people, even many with extensive training in stabbing oriented edged weapon methods, revert to slashing under pressure(Force On Force). I've seen a lot of repetitive angle 1, angle 2, angle 1, angle 2, etc. type stuff. It seems slashing will likely result in horrific looking, but largely superficial, and ineffectual wounds. Throw in a heavy coat, and that type of slashing could be completely
futile.

So, what do you all think? What should we do?

semperfi.45

I'm gonna go with answer c: shoot 'em!

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2edgesword

The situation with respect to stabbings in prisons may have more to do with the types of weapons available versus any significant benefit to stabbing versus slashing. Creating a stabbing impliment is probably a lot easier given what prisoners have access to (materials and the ability to work the materials) then creating a sharpened blade for slashing.

Comprehensive training will include slashing, stabbing and combinations of both.

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Dal1Celt

In Eskrima I'm taught to slash/fillet my opponent. The more serious the slash the less likely the attacker is to proceed.

IMHO

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MinistrMalic

This is not an either/or. First of all, it is dumb to bring a knife to a gun fight. The knife is for that part of the fight where you cannot get to your firearm but can get to your knife.

Second, it is a combination of stabbing and slashing that gets the job done. You MUST realize that in the heat of combat a BG will be able to fight a long time with significant injuries. Whether you shoot him or slash him or stab him, he will not give up instantly. So you must overwhelm him with intensity, speed, and technique.

Translation: hit vital areas with slashes and stab to keep him "out of time" so to speak.

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MilitaryPower

My primary technique is to slash. Stabbing with a knife is like a gunshot. You can get either many times in a lot of places before you go down. Placement is key. With slashing, your wound area is bigger and more likely to stop (not necessarily kill) the attacker. I can get shot or stabbed in the arm and it not stop me, but if a slash severs the muscle and tendons, that arm is now non-functional. Granted a stab or bullet in the right place will do the same, but you have to be more precise. Precise just isn't there in a fight. Plus a bullet will usually go further into a body than a knife will. A stab and then slash would be a nasty wound.

Also, try stabbing an artery. Slashing is is so much easier and the chances for success are so much better. Just make sure that your blade is sharp and you put effort into your cuts as not to make a bunch of superficial cuts.

That said, there is a time and place for stabbing, just like there is for head shots, but generally center mass is better as you can get the same effect for less effort.

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J Bowen

I think a slashing type is best.
When using a sharp blade even
slashing will slice right through heavy
jackets, clothing and on down into flesh.
While it is a popular saying "dont bring a knife
to a gunfight" a knife when used in very close quarters
is better than a gun and probably more deadly.
A big advantage of stabbing is of course deeper wounds
also stabbing is more discrete which is one reason the method
is used more in prisons. Good to practice different methods and
styles

psychophipps

Prison officials worry about deep poking shivs more than slashing shivs due to the vastly increased chances of infection, especially for lower abdominal hits.

I prefer stabbing techniques for the speed and smaller arc of movement for potential detection and subsequent deflection by your opponent. Add a bit of the FMA thrust-cut technique and you can get a pretty good hybrid of the two with each strike.

mercop

For those who continue with the gun show slogan comments like "Just shoot them" and "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"- have you done any force on force against edged weapons?

We have narrowed it down to the two most likely angles you will be attacked at, Angle 1 traveling high right to low left from a right handed attacker, and Angle 7 which is a stab. Angle 1 looks remarkably like a roundhouse punch, and Angle 7 a jab or rabbit punch. Research shows that most victims of edged weapon attacks did not see the weapon. In addition it takes on average 3/4 of a second to respond to a visual stimuli. That said I think we can all agree that responding to a roundhouse punch with a firearm in most circumstances is going to be unjustified. So someone is swinging at you and you are able to see a weapon, what are the chances of you being able to deploy your pistol, get the muzzle between you and the attacker and pull the trigger before they #1, slash your face/neck with a box cutter, or #2, plunge a screwdriver between your ribs?

This past weekend we did an Edged Weapon Survival / Combative Pistol Course in Pittsburgh. Students found out fast that going to the traditional two handed shooting stance resulted in them taking at least one cut/stab to a vital area. They were also attacked with impact weapons representing tire irons while they were wearing headgear. This resulted in them taking what would be a crippling blow to the side or top of the head.

One student realized they need to deal with the assault first, and needed to move. They began using their reaction side hand to block/wrap/deflect their attacker. This coupled with moving at a hard 45 degree angle to the right of their attacker usually resulted in them landing rounds without being touched by the weapon.

Back to cuts. vs slashes. We are discussing the offensive use of edged weapons, when you are backed into a corner. View yourself as a cat in that situation. Your knife should be used as a claw in a frenzy to make the predator realize you are not worth his life. You fight to stop the attacker, not to win or kill him. If he dies in the fight, that is the breaks. I view cut/rips/slashes as the claws. Stabs are your teeth. Teeth are used defensively, but usually only after the claws open up the attackers body to expose vital areas.

At the beginning of an attack, where you are defending with an edged weapon, you are most likely to be moving backward. When humans are forced backwards, their arms go out to the side trying to keep their balance. If you have a knife in your hand and are defending at this point, you will be slashing. What we have evidenced during force on force is that the slashes usually cut the outside of the shoulder and across the torso. This does little to any of the body systems.

The human arm is only capable of three things: pushing, pulling, and swinging. We are hardwired to use swinging to defend ourselves since it covers the most area in front of us to block/wrap/evade. With a knife, it also allows us to cover more area on our attacker increasing the chances of a cut. Long before we had edged weapons, we were stuck with our natural impact weapons at the end of our arms...our fists. We learned early on that the centrifugal force generated by swinging worked well for beating people off of us or at least changing their mind about the attack. Before the invention of purpose driven weapons, pushing someone (stabbing) off of us had little benefit, especially when there was a disparity in size. In life and death situations at contact distance when being driven back, our primitive mind had a tendency to win out over our trained mind. We can't change it so we train into it.

The way we do this at MCS is with Inverted Edge Tactics. By using the inverted grip, we placed the blade in a position to take natural advantage of the natural path of our hands (from the waist line up to our chest). On its way up, you feel the knife "catch" in vital areas and pull as your attacker responds to the pain. This causes a devastating scissor effect.

Focusing on the tool instead of the fight is a deadly error. - George

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Queensidecas

The stabbing vs slashing debate will go on forever. What I think is important is for each person to adopt a style, choose an appropriate knife for that style, train in that style, and hope you NEVER are force to defend yourself with a knife. ALL of that assumes that you dont have your handgun because you are in a place/situation where you are not allowed to have it or some other circumstance.

Having said all of that the reason I chose stabbing over slashing as my personal defense style is I am 100% convinced through evident reason, logic and my own personal experiences that philosophies and concepts expoused by Marc Macyoung on his website: No Nonsense Self Defense - Reliable information for dangerous situations about self defense using a knife are totally correct. Read up on everything he has to say on the topic and make up your own mind. I am also convinced that the fastest way to end a knife fight is from deep stabs and ending a fight quickly is the only thing that is important if your only goal is self defense. Figure 8 slashing techniques are nonsense. You should be running away instead of standing off if you have the time to stand there swinging your knife in a figure 8 and other such garbage. I think the best real world scenario of true knife attacks and self defense is basically what happens in prison. These hardened criminals are more lethal with a knife than anyone and I think their view on how to attack and defend with a knife is more realistic than anyone since they are the only people that actually kill and get killed with knives in modern society. They are also limited to using shanks which are basically the size of most folders and small fixed blades that the law limits people to carrying.

My own analysis: I think the concept of a knife fight is utter nonsense, especially a knife fight vs someone else with a knife. This isnt the movies, it is real life and you play for keeps. No second chances. I am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone. Fighting is a completely different mindset that self defense and as I said above I couldnt agree more with what Marc MacYoung has to say about it. For me I want a small knife made for lethal stabs that has a point that can punch through anything so that if I am truly cornered and cannot run, that I can deliver the necessary critical blows that WILL allow me to get away.

If the bad guy has a gun and I dont, the only chance is to give them what they want and PRAY that if that doesnt satisfy them that you can either disarm them or run. If I have my gun, I will defend myself while retreating. Having a plan for a defensive knife scenario is just for the off chance that situation #1 occurs and I am in a place that would not allow me to conceal carry my handgun