Pics and thoughts on some impact weapons

mercop · September 21st, 2009, 01:26 PM

There are two major reasons for the large interest of palm sized impact weapons these days, one is the prohibition of carrying edged weapons and firearms these days in many places, and the second is the growing understanding that it is a logical part of a layered defense to have something in your hand when the attack happens that will allow you to damage your attacker and then transition to another weapon or get away.

These tools provide for two basic needs, one is causing a concentration of force on a small surface area, which increases trauma. Two, is that they provide a fist load with or without weight that can add impact or just protection to your hand during impact. One that is usually missing in either the capability or training with the particular tools is the ability to manipulate the balance of your attacker and being able to use these items for blood chokes. As a rule impact weapons seek bone, edged weapons seek flesh. Primary targets for these impact tools are the head, face, neck, chest, elbows, and hands. Depending on the situation you may be able to strike the knees and feet. Once you have the back, you may also be able to access the spine but this should be avoided unless it is a deadly force situation, and you better be able to articulate why you struck them in the spine instead of running away.

We have a logical process for the selection of tools- Selection, Carry, Deployment, and Use. While writing the article, I am going to be critical from several points. First of all, I believe all citizens should be able to carry what ever they want to protect them from evil. As a retired police officer, I have to say that I seldom ran across good guys and more knucklehead vs knucklehead. This is what develops an officer’s beliefs over times. So, I will also be looking at these tools from a law enforcement point of view. The last point of view I will use is the one that I believe eludes too many people, that is the one of a trainer who knows what he can do has a base line for what his “average” student can do. Even more important though is the perspective of how altercations happen and the mindset and skills needed to use a contact distance weapon during a real life attack.

Much to the chagrin of some other martial types, I maintain the belief based on my training, experience, and research that people are much more likely to swing (hammer fist), than jab (straight punch) in the majority of circumstances. Because of this, even impact weapons that provide for more than one type of strike should have the hammer fist as the primary.

I have grouped the following tools into classes-

Top row- Traditional wooden (Yawara Bo, palm stick, Kubaton, whatever) and an aluminum version made by Phil Smith of Phil Smith Knives. These are oldies but goodies, most people are used to seeing these with keys on them. I am not a fan of this, but instead prefer it to be hung on the waistband with a piece of parachute cord. The primary strike with Kubatons is a hammer fist and it allows for manipulation and chokes because of its protrusions on both sides of your hand. These items may get a second look from LE and security. I prefer the ones made by Alpha Innovations since they are made in the US, and are easily replaceable if confiscated, lost, or stolen.

Second row- Comtech Stinger, this is a devastating tool if you are in a position to throw a straight punch. The two things I don’t like is that it does not provide for a hammer fist strike, and that it does not resemble anything that has a legitimate non SD purpose. Next are two examples of Executive Ice Scrapers. The first is metal and the second one plastic produced by Choate Machine & Tool. I got the metal one just because I thought it was neat. The plastic one is actually a great little ice scraper and busts up ice real well. I would never carry one on my person but every vehicle I have has one in the door pocket. If you happen to have one in your hand when attacked, they would make some devastating gashes in flesh. This would also turn this into an edged weapon. The two-finger knuck between the ice scrapers is exactly the type of thing that will set bells off to any cop or security guard with a drop of common sense.

Third row- Travel Wrench and Saf T Wrench by Kelly Worden. Both of these are excellent tools and Kelly had a course based on them. Besides being used as weapons, they actually can be used as a wrench. They both provide for the hammer fist strike and the Saf T Wrench provides for concentrated jabs as well. One thing I like about Kelly’s stuff is that it has information on it. To me this shows professional responsibility. Most people will have never seen these before and they might attract attention. Next are my favorites, Koppos sticks. A Koppo stick is basically a Kubaton with a piece of rope that you loop your two middle fingers through. This means that you can handle kids, groceries, or whatever without dropping it. When someone grabs us, we are hardwired to open up our hands to grab them back. This can lead to dropped tools or a lack of being able to use your strong hand for control. With the Koppo this is not an issue. I also have no problem drawing and firing most pistols with the Koppo in my hand. These are my favorite control tools. An inexpensive bombproof version is available from Alpha Innovations.

Fourth row-This row is reserved for what Jones Bros Knives calls Party Favors. By now you can see which ones provide for hammer fists, straight punches, and control options. Also pictured in the PRK (*****) Police Rescue Knife designed by me and made by Barry Jones. Here is the steel version next to the Garolite version. Garolite is what Barry makes most of the toys out of. Most of this stuff, except for the stylus, will attract unwanted attention. The items on the bottom are Barry’s Cuff Links. Ti disks connected with a piece of paracord. You wear these as a bracelet. I hope I don’t have to explain what they are used for.

Final thoughts, most people will be well served with any cylindrical item about 5-6 inches long and between ¼ and ½ in diameter. Hmm, that sounds like just about “any” pen or small flashlight. This should be your primary tool clipped to your shirt, and then you can sprinkle other things around based on your needs, training, and environment.

QKShooter · September 21st, 2009, 02:32 PM

Some of those items shown would not be legal for citizen carry in PA which is where I noticed that you are from.
AKA they would be classed as "metal knuckles" & on the PA Prohibited Offensive Weapons list. Just FYI.

My best educated guess is that even if the knucks were high impact plastic and not "metal" that they would still be a violation of the PA P.O.W. law as covered by "or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose." As would be some of the others shown like the push dagger no matter what exact material it was constructed from.

"Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-
off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially
made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge,
any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or
cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an
automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or
otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic
or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of
serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

1980Maico440 · September 21st, 2009, 02:52 PM

Nice heavy duty pen for me, plus a costco card somehow kinda sharp on several sides, plus a light about the length of a kubaton, plus a belt with heavy buckle. Its kinda fun to think outside the box for weapons at hand.

ps Thanks for reminding me how much PA sucks.
bh

mercop · September 21st, 2009, 03:09 PM

I am pretty up on my state and local laws.

ghost tracker · September 21st, 2009, 03:28 PM

I've traveled extensively on commercal airlines since 9/11 in the constant, uncontested possession of a big oak stick. It's just shaped...like a cane

. Let's remember, your best weapon is tucked BTE (between the ears).

ccw9mm · September 21st, 2009, 03:41 PM

A long-time friend of mine earned a black belt in various martial arts when he was still a teenager, then honed his skills and wisdom over time. He's had a kubotan and a couple other simple tools with him ever since. That thing hurts when properly used. Even knowing it was doming and attempting to resist, I have rarely been dropped as quickly as his energetic use of that thing on me. Leaves a mark ... I don't care what they say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghost tracker

I've traveled extensively on commercal airlines since 9/11 in the constant, uncontested possession of a big oak stick. It's just shaped...like a cane

Being partially disabled, myself, flying and traveling with a cane is something I've done for a good while, now, as well. It's something that won't be taken away at the gate or boarding area, and it holds together no matter what you strike. The trick for me is holding onto it sufficiently well when the dust kicks up. More training, soon.

ghost tracker · September 21st, 2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

...holding onto it sufficiently well when the dust kicks up.

Stipple checker the grip area & install a short 550 Paracord wrist lanyard. Because I don't really require the use of a cane, the lanyard also helps me not to mindlessly leave it hanging on the urinal stall.

Censored · September 21st, 2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccw9mm

A long-time friend of mine earned a black belt in various martial arts when he was still a teenager, then honed his skills and wisdom over time. He's had a kubotan and a couple other simple tools with him ever since. That thing hurts when properly used. Even knowing it was doming and attempting to resist, I have rarely been dropped as quickly as his energetic use of that thing on me. Leaves a mark ... I don't care what they say.

Being partially disabled, myself, flying and traveling with a cane is something I've done for a good while, now, as well. It's something that won't be taken away at the gate or boarding area, and it holds together no matter what you strike. The trick for me is holding onto it sufficiently well when the dust kicks up. More training, soon.

Fortunately, I have been able to get off my cane for the past 4 months, except when I have to fly or go where I'm not allowed to CC.

2edgesword · September 21st, 2009, 05:30 PM

Mercop

As usual very informative.

I agree that the primary action would be a hammer fist strike while capping the weapon with your thumb. Thrusting can be done but it's more difficult to secure the weapon. It will hurt and you can do some damage but it does require practice in order to learn to generate maximum force.

"There are two major reasons for the large interest of palm sized impact weapons these days, one is the prohibition of carrying edged weapons and firearms these days in many places..."

It's getting crazy in NYC. I've had a couple of law abiding, regular working class friends get hassled in NYC for carrying small 3" pocket knives where the pocket clip was spotted by a LEO. In one incident a friend was standing on the street talking on a cell phone. The officers walked passed him, stopped and came back to him to ask "why are you carrying that?"pointing to his pocket. The default position seems to be if you're carrying any type of weapon it's for nefarious reasons.

QKShooter · September 21st, 2009, 05:40 PM

Well, at least we don't have any blade length restrictions though any knife with a double edge is pretty much considered to be a "dagger" in legal terms.
I know that in my PA suburbia area and also in PGH even a LEO caught carrying a set of "knucks" or a push dagger would find himself "out of his uniform" in about three shakes of an ASP baton.

Don't know if that is the same all over PA.

A wise person would always get familiar with their respective state "prohibited" restrictions...if any.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1980Maico440

Nice heavy duty pen for me, plus a costco card somehow kinda sharp on several sides, plus a light about the length of a kubaton, plus a belt with heavy buckle. Its kinda fun to think outside the box for weapons at hand.

ps Thanks for reminding me how much PA sucks.
bh

September 21st, 2009, 01:26 PM	#1
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 605	Pics and thoughts on some impact weapons There are two major reasons for the large interest of palm sized impact weapons these days, one is the prohibition of carrying edged weapons and firearms these days in many places, and the second is the growing understanding that it is a logical part of a layered defense to have something in your hand when the attack happens that will allow you to damage your attacker and then transition to another weapon or get away. These tools provide for two basic needs, one is causing a concentration of force on a small surface area, which increases trauma. Two, is that they provide a fist load with or without weight that can add impact or just protection to your hand during impact. One that is usually missing in either the capability or training with the particular tools is the ability to manipulate the balance of your attacker and being able to use these items for blood chokes. As a rule impact weapons seek bone, edged weapons seek flesh. Primary targets for these impact tools are the head, face, neck, chest, elbows, and hands. Depending on the situation you may be able to strike the knees and feet. Once you have the back, you may also be able to access the spine but this should be avoided unless it is a deadly force situation, and you better be able to articulate why you struck them in the spine instead of running away. We have a logical process for the selection of tools- Selection, Carry, Deployment, and Use. While writing the article, I am going to be critical from several points. First of all, I believe all citizens should be able to carry what ever they want to protect them from evil. As a retired police officer, I have to say that I seldom ran across good guys and more knucklehead vs knucklehead. This is what develops an officer’s beliefs over times. So, I will also be looking at these tools from a law enforcement point of view. The last point of view I will use is the one that I believe eludes too many people, that is the one of a trainer who knows what he can do has a base line for what his “average” student can do. Even more important though is the perspective of how altercations happen and the mindset and skills needed to use a contact distance weapon during a real life attack. Much to the chagrin of some other martial types, I maintain the belief based on my training, experience, and research that people are much more likely to swing (hammer fist), than jab (straight punch) in the majority of circumstances. Because of this, even impact weapons that provide for more than one type of strike should have the hammer fist as the primary. I have grouped the following tools into classes- Top row- Traditional wooden (Yawara Bo, palm stick, Kubaton, whatever) and an aluminum version made by Phil Smith of Phil Smith Knives. These are oldies but goodies, most people are used to seeing these with keys on them. I am not a fan of this, but instead prefer it to be hung on the waistband with a piece of parachute cord. The primary strike with Kubatons is a hammer fist and it allows for manipulation and chokes because of its protrusions on both sides of your hand. These items may get a second look from LE and security. I prefer the ones made by Alpha Innovations since they are made in the US, and are easily replaceable if confiscated, lost, or stolen. Second row- Comtech Stinger, this is a devastating tool if you are in a position to throw a straight punch. The two things I don’t like is that it does not provide for a hammer fist strike, and that it does not resemble anything that has a legitimate non SD purpose. Next are two examples of Executive Ice Scrapers. The first is metal and the second one plastic produced by Choate Machine & Tool. I got the metal one just because I thought it was neat. The plastic one is actually a great little ice scraper and busts up ice real well. I would never carry one on my person but every vehicle I have has one in the door pocket. If you happen to have one in your hand when attacked, they would make some devastating gashes in flesh. This would also turn this into an edged weapon. The two-finger knuck between the ice scrapers is exactly the type of thing that will set bells off to any cop or security guard with a drop of common sense. Third row- Travel Wrench and Saf T Wrench by Kelly Worden. Both of these are excellent tools and Kelly had a course based on them. Besides being used as weapons, they actually can be used as a wrench. They both provide for the hammer fist strike and the Saf T Wrench provides for concentrated jabs as well. One thing I like about Kelly’s stuff is that it has information on it. To me this shows professional responsibility. Most people will have never seen these before and they might attract attention. Next are my favorites, Koppos sticks. A Koppo stick is basically a Kubaton with a piece of rope that you loop your two middle fingers through. This means that you can handle kids, groceries, or whatever without dropping it. When someone grabs us, we are hardwired to open up our hands to grab them back. This can lead to dropped tools or a lack of being able to use your strong hand for control. With the Koppo this is not an issue. I also have no problem drawing and firing most pistols with the Koppo in my hand. These are my favorite control tools. An inexpensive bombproof version is available from Alpha Innovations. Fourth row-This row is reserved for what Jones Bros Knives calls Party Favors. By now you can see which ones provide for hammer fists, straight punches, and control options. Also pictured in the PRK (*****) Police Rescue Knife designed by me and made by Barry Jones. Here is the steel version next to the Garolite version. Garolite is what Barry makes most of the toys out of. Most of this stuff, except for the stylus, will attract unwanted attention. The items on the bottom are Barry’s Cuff Links. Ti disks connected with a piece of paracord. You wear these as a bracelet. I hope I don’t have to explain what they are used for. Final thoughts, most people will be well served with any cylindrical item about 5-6 inches long and between ¼ and ½ in diameter. Hmm, that sounds like just about “any” pen or small flashlight. This should be your primary tool clipped to your shirt, and then you can sprinkle other things around based on your needs, training, and environment. __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

September 21st, 2009, 02:52 PM	#3
1980Maico440 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 65	Nice heavy duty pen for me, plus a costco card somehow kinda sharp on several sides, plus a light about the length of a kubaton, plus a belt with heavy buckle. Its kinda fun to think outside the box for weapons at hand. ps Thanks for reminding me how much PA sucks. bh __________________ I won't stop racing when I get old, I will get old when I stop racing NRA Life, Master Mason, Jack-of-All-Trades (Master of None)

September 21st, 2009, 03:09 PM	#4
mercop Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: PA Posts: 605	I am pretty up on my state and local laws. __________________ 2010 MCS Calander http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgb7wjh3_299f8tncbcz

September 21st, 2009, 03:28 PM	#5
ghost tracker Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ky Backwoods Posts: 1,154	I've traveled extensively on commercal airlines since 9/11 in the constant, uncontested possession of a *big oak stick. It's just shaped...like a cane . Let's remember, your best weapon is tucked BTE (between the ears). __________________ There are only TWO* kinds of people in this world; those that describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.

September 21st, 2009, 05:30 PM	#9
2edgesword Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: New York Posts: 395	Mercop As usual very informative. I agree that the primary action would be a hammer fist strike while capping the weapon with your thumb. Thrusting can be done but it's more difficult to secure the weapon. It will hurt and you can do some damage but it does require practice in order to learn to generate maximum force. "There are two major reasons for the large interest of palm sized impact weapons these days, one is the prohibition of carrying edged weapons and firearms these days in many places..." It's getting crazy in NYC. I've had a couple of law abiding, regular working class friends get hassled in NYC for carrying small 3" pocket knives where the pocket clip was spotted by a LEO. In one incident a friend was standing on the street talking on a cell phone. The officers walked passed him, stopped and came back to him to ask "why are you carrying that?"pointing to his pocket. The default position seems to be if you're carrying any type of weapon it's for nefarious reasons. __________________ Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF

September 21st, 2009, 02:32 PM	#2
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off Of The X Posts: 23,473	Some of those items shown would not be legal for citizen carry in PA which is where I noticed that you are from. AKA they would be classed as "metal knuckles" & on the PA Prohibited Offensive Weapons list. Just FYI. My best educated guess is that even if the knucks were high impact plastic and not "metal" that they would still be a violation of the PA P.O.W. law as covered by "or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose." As would be some of the others shown like the push dagger no matter what exact material it was constructed from. "Offensive weapons." Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed- off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, *metal knuckles,* dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, any stun gun, stun baton, taser or other electronic or electric weapon or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.

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