Jousting with eBay windmills.

cphilip · January 23rd, 2007, 09:22 PM

I know... I just was having some fun with them. Not even sure I got it exactly correct but ... A little background

I saw an auciton for an AR Bolt assembly, a carry handle and a scope mount on eBay the other night for $125 buy it now. So bought it. Good seller. Lady that was selling it for her Son. Perfect feedback and lots of it. Well... a couple hours after I had bought it and paid her and she and I had conversed we get a email from eBay telling us the Auction was cancelled for illegal item listed. So... I and the lady agreed that we were going with the deal and screw eBay. But I decided to harrass them a bit. Here is the exchange. If it amuses you to do so.

I am replying to the automatic message canceling the Auction (now remember I already bought it and paid for it and the seller has shipped it today by the way):

My first reply

Subject:Listing Ended Prohibited Item
Message: Auction# 110082299008

There is nothing prohibited by eBay nor any federal or State law (including California) that was listed in this auction. All three items are within the rules of eBay and parts of a firearm that are legal to sell in all 50 states. They are not regulated parts in any way. Even under the Assault weapons ban states there three parts do not make up any of the restricted parts. So whomever you have reviewing these things needs to go back to school. These are totaly legal parts within the regulations of California, all other states and within the rules of eBay. You owe this seller an appology.

Phil

eBay's "Nash" replies

On 1/23/07 8:06 PM, "eBay Customer Support" <rswebhelp@ebay.com>

wrote: Dear eBay Member,

Thank you for writing eBay in regard to the AR-15 parts auction that you are concerned about.

Firearm-related items and weapons may cause harm to the eBay Community. Additionally, the sale of these items may be regulated by the
government. For these reasons, eBay restricts the sale of
firearm-related items and weapons to a very few types. Sellers can list
these types of items on eBay under very specific conditions only.

The AR-15 is considered an assault weapon under the California Penal Code, section 12276:

"12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the
following designated semiautomatic firearms: (5) Colt AR-15 series."

The sale of any assault weapon-related parts or accessories is not
permitted on eBay because selling these items is highly regulated by the government or may be illegal in some areas. The prohibited items include
stocks, grips, slings, sights, or any part or accessory that is described as an assault weapon by either federal or California state
law.

As these were parts for an assault weapon, they are prohibited under
eBay's Firearms, Weapons and Knives policy and the auction was removed
correctly.

For more information on the eBay Firearms, Weapons, and Knives policy,
please visit:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...ns-knives.html

If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to reply to this
email and let us know.

Sincerely,

Nash
eBay Customer Support

Me again:

Nash,

Thanks the response.

But... It does no good to point to a definition if you do not read the law as to why they had to define it. What that definition is then used to do is important.

California allows sales of AR-15's as long as they are constructed with a fixed magazine of no more 10 rounds and proper permits are obtained. That is the ENTIRE GUN that is the Firearm defined, not parts. California "restricts them". It does not ban them. It puts forth specific regulations to own and possess them. You are confusing Ban with Restrict. And you are then quoting ONLY the definition section of the law. Your not reading far enough. And I think your concluding that they are banned? No... Not the case.

Your definition of them as Assault Rifles is correct for California. And a few other states. But not by most. And not by the Federal Law. You see there really is no such thing as an Assault Rifle. All Rifles "could be used to assault". Or could be used to hunt or target shoot. But for the purposes of this discussion lets just get past that.

They are not banned. They are "restricted". But parts are not a "firearm". Most components of them are within the law and legal to sell in California. Everything that you list is perfectly legal to sell anywhere. By federal and state law.

The part that is the "firearm" of an AR is the lower receiver. It can be bought in California, but must ship to an Federal Firearms Licensee and be properly transferred to the owner who has obtained a permit.

California exempts the owners prior to 1992 from the restrictions. California then defines what components a AR can have or not have to be legally owned. It is the owners responsibility to comply with the law. California then goes on to define what permit will be needed to obtain one. You see they are not "Banned" in any way. They are restricted. And the part that is covered, in the case of the AR, is the receiver. Not all the other parts and pieces because that receiver IS the firearm.

And there is no Federal Assault Weapons restrictions in place anymore. They were allowed to expire because they had no value. It became evident that the only people that were affected were reasonable law abiding citizens and not crooks. Because crooks don't obey laws. Which is typical of such laws. They end up affected the wrong people. The law abiding.

Parts of firearms, including the items in this persons auction ARE NOT illegal to sell in any state (including California) and are not in violation of eBay policy which DOES NOT say that parts cannot be sold of any kind. It says "firearms" cannot be sold. And under all state and federal laws the parts do not make up a firearm. Only one key component is the Firearm by definition. It is the receiver or frame that contains the serial number. Those definitions are Federally mandated. And California defines them the same way.

Your attempting to oversimplify something. And so your conclusions are wrong. There are a bunch of Auctions on eBay at this very minute selling perfectly legitimate Firearm related items which are both legal and within eBay's policy. If you wish to change your policy to make it simpler for you then you will have to just come out and say that nothing even firearm related can be sold. Would that be simple enough to just clearly say it? Is there some reason you have to be misleading about it?

So in conclusion: You are incorrectly defining "firearm" and misinterpreting California Law as well. And you are then attempting to apply your erroneous interpretation of California law to the rest of the Nation.

I don't expect to sway you as it appears your of the mindset that you know what's best. However I aim to at least point out to you the error of your ways and why many people innocently are being accused of selling things that are perfectly legal to sell. If you wish to look more carefully into the laws then do so. If you wish to clearly make anything firearm related against your policy then do so. But do it clearly and completely one way or another.

Phil

P95Carry · January 23rd, 2007, 09:37 PM

Kudos for your stamina

A gun is a gun - parts are parts. Boy do they have some problems with ''grey" .

cphilip · January 23rd, 2007, 09:49 PM

Oh... I am tiring of it now. But just decided to irritate them.

"We are putting eBay in danger with our dangerous assault weapons"....

I feel bad about that... ;)

lowflyer · January 23rd, 2007, 09:58 PM

I think you wasted your time trying to reason with unreasonable people, but nicely done anyway.

cphilip · January 23rd, 2007, 10:18 PM

Oh yea... thats obviously a waste of time. Better have tried and failed before me!

I didn't even tripple check my facts because I knew he wouldn't even read it. His eyes probably glazed over the minute he read the first paragraph.

Ranger · January 24th, 2007, 08:59 AM

Nice work with ebay.

Just for future reference, you were Jousting with ebay. Joisting is building a flooring system.

sailormnop · January 24th, 2007, 09:01 AM

The problem you have in your argument with eBay is that they are not saying it is illegal to sell those items, only that it is against eBay's policy, which it is. If you want to change that, you need to speak with eBay's management and that won't have a prayer of success - we already know they are far-left and antigun.

sgtD · January 24th, 2007, 10:46 AM

Just sell the stuff on Gun Broker. Screw e-bay if they think that gun parts put thier members in danger.

goawayfarm · January 24th, 2007, 11:56 AM

Ebay has gotten so ridiculous that if you sell a holster OR any firearm accessory, you can't have a picture of it with the firearm in it. They get scared at just a picture of a firearm.

You can't get much more anti-gun than that. It won't be long until they ban ALL firearm related items.

cphilip · January 24th, 2007, 12:04 PM

LOL... didn't even notice the title typo. Doooh! Joisting... that's funny. Ahem...

Now... remember, I was not the seller. I was the buyer. But regardless of eBay policy, it did appear to me that he was trying to imply that their reason was the items "could be illegal" to sell.

I have heard of holsters being kicked off because the picture used a real gun in the holster. I see many of the auctions putting disclaimers in them. Something like "EBAY DO NOT REMOVE THIS ITEM IS LEGAL TO SELL". Things like that. As if the seller has to point out to them what the rules are.

And whats with this theory that "these can harm the eBay community"? Whats that nonsense all about. How is that?

They definately should just go ahead and come out and say it. They are Anti-Gun ANYTHING. They just might as well admit it. Which is what I was trying to tell them.

January 23rd, 2007, 09:22 PM	#1
cphilip Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,447	Jousting with eBay windmills. I know... I just was having some fun with them. Not even sure I got it exactly correct but ... A little background I saw an auciton for an AR Bolt assembly, a carry handle and a scope mount on eBay the other night for $125 buy it now. So bought it. Good seller. Lady that was selling it for her Son. Perfect feedback and lots of it. Well... a couple hours after I had bought it and paid her and she and I had conversed we get a email from eBay telling us the Auction was cancelled for illegal item listed. So... I and the lady agreed that we were going with the deal and screw eBay. But I decided to harrass them a bit. Here is the exchange. If it amuses you to do so. I am replying to the automatic message canceling the Auction (now remember I already bought it and paid for it and the seller has shipped it today by the way): My first reply Subject:Listing Ended Prohibited Item Message: Auction# 110082299008 There is nothing prohibited by eBay nor any federal or State law (including California) that was listed in this auction. All three items are within the rules of eBay and parts of a firearm that are legal to sell in all 50 states. They are not regulated parts in any way. Even under the Assault weapons ban states there three parts do not make up any of the restricted parts. So whomever you have reviewing these things needs to go back to school. These are totaly legal parts within the regulations of California, all other states and within the rules of eBay. You owe this seller an appology. Phil eBay's "Nash" replies On 1/23/07 8:06 PM, "eBay Customer Support" <rswebhelp@ebay.com> wrote: Dear eBay Member, Thank you for writing eBay in regard to the AR-15 parts auction that you are concerned about. Firearm-related items and weapons may cause harm to the eBay Community. Additionally, the sale of these items may be regulated by the government. For these reasons, eBay restricts the sale of firearm-related items and weapons to a very few types. Sellers can list these types of items on eBay under very specific conditions only. The AR-15 is considered an assault weapon under the California Penal Code, section 12276: "12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms: (5) Colt AR-15 series." The sale of any assault weapon-related parts or accessories is not permitted on eBay because selling these items is highly regulated by the government or may be illegal in some areas. The prohibited items include stocks, grips, slings, sights, or any part or accessory that is described as an assault weapon by either federal or California state law. As these were parts for an assault weapon, they are prohibited under eBay's Firearms, Weapons and Knives policy and the auction was removed correctly. For more information on the eBay Firearms, Weapons, and Knives policy, please visit: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...ns-knives.html If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to reply to this email and let us know. Sincerely, Nash eBay Customer Support Me again: Nash, Thanks the response. But... It does no good to point to a definition if you do not read the law as to why they had to define it. What that definition is then used to do is important. California allows sales of AR-15's as long as they are constructed with a fixed magazine of no more 10 rounds and proper permits are obtained. That is the ENTIRE GUN that is the Firearm defined, not parts. California "restricts them". It does not ban them. It puts forth specific regulations to own and possess them. You are confusing Ban with Restrict. And you are then quoting ONLY the definition section of the law. Your not reading far enough. And I think your concluding that they are banned? No... Not the case. Your definition of them as Assault Rifles is correct for California. And a few other states. But not by most. And not by the Federal Law. You see there really is no such thing as an Assault Rifle. All Rifles "could be used to assault". Or could be used to hunt or target shoot. But for the purposes of this discussion lets just get past that. They are not banned. They are "restricted". But parts are not a "firearm". Most components of them are within the law and legal to sell in California. Everything that you list is perfectly legal to sell anywhere. By federal and state law. The part that is the "firearm" of an AR is the lower receiver. It can be bought in California, but must ship to an Federal Firearms Licensee and be properly transferred to the owner who has obtained a permit. California exempts the owners prior to 1992 from the restrictions. California then defines what components a AR can have or not have to be legally owned. It is the owners responsibility to comply with the law. California then goes on to define what permit will be needed to obtain one. You see they are not "Banned" in any way. They are restricted. And the part that is covered, in the case of the AR, is the receiver. Not all the other parts and pieces because that receiver IS the firearm. And there is no Federal Assault Weapons restrictions in place anymore. They were allowed to expire because they had no value. It became evident that the only people that were affected were reasonable law abiding citizens and not crooks. Because crooks don't obey laws. Which is typical of such laws. They end up affected the wrong people. The law abiding. Parts of firearms, including the items in this persons auction ARE NOT illegal to sell in any state (including California) and are not in violation of eBay policy which DOES NOT say that parts cannot be sold of any kind. It says "firearms" cannot be sold. And under all state and federal laws the parts do not make up a firearm. Only one key component is the Firearm by definition. It is the receiver or frame that contains the serial number. Those definitions are Federally mandated. And California defines them the same way. Your attempting to oversimplify something. And so your conclusions are wrong. There are a bunch of Auctions on eBay at this very minute selling perfectly legitimate Firearm related items which are both legal and within eBay's policy. If you wish to change your policy to make it simpler for you then you will have to just come out and say that nothing even firearm related can be sold. Would that be simple enough to just clearly say it? Is there some reason you have to be misleading about it? So in conclusion: You are incorrectly defining "firearm" and misinterpreting California Law as well. And you are then attempting to apply your erroneous interpretation of California law to the rest of the Nation. I don't expect to sway you as it appears your of the mindset that you know what's best. However I aim to at least point out to you the error of your ways and why many people innocently are being accused of selling things that are perfectly legal to sell. If you wish to look more carefully into the laws then do so. If you wish to clearly make anything firearm related against your policy then do so. But do it clearly and completely one way or another. Phil __________________ www.cphilip.com Last edited by cphilip; January 24th, 2007 at 12:35 PM.. Reason: Fix typo in title

January 23rd, 2007, 09:37 PM	#2
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,407	Kudos for your stamina A gun is a gun - parts are parts. Boy do they have some problems with ''grey" . __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

January 23rd, 2007, 09:49 PM	#3
cphilip Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,447	Oh... I am tiring of it now. But just decided to irritate them. "We are putting eBay in danger with our dangerous assault weapons".... I feel bad about that... ;) __________________ www.cphilip.com

January 23rd, 2007, 09:58 PM	#4
lowflyer Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 1,162	I think you wasted your time trying to reason with unreasonable people, but nicely done anyway. __________________ Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

January 23rd, 2007, 10:18 PM	#5
cphilip Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,447	Oh yea... thats obviously a waste of time. Better have tried and failed before me! I didn't even tripple check my facts because I knew he wouldn't even read it. His eyes probably glazed over the minute he read the first paragraph. __________________ www.cphilip.com

January 24th, 2007, 08:59 AM	#6
Ranger Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 371	Nice work with ebay. Just for future reference, you were Jousting with ebay. Joisting is building a flooring system.

January 24th, 2007, 09:01 AM	#7
sailormnop Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tidewater, VA, USA Posts: 293	The problem you have in your argument with eBay is that they are not saying it is illegal to sell those items, only that it is against eBay's policy, which it is. If you want to change that, you need to speak with eBay's management and that won't have a prayer of success - we already know they are far-left and antigun. __________________ Check out the Free State Project How does the economy really work? Mises Institute Laissez Faire Books offers an extensive collection of books on liberty, free markets, philosophy, economics, politics and history.

January 24th, 2007, 10:46 AM	#8
sgtD Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 1,711	Just sell the stuff on Gun Broker. Screw e-bay if they think that gun parts put thier members in danger. __________________ When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

January 24th, 2007, 11:56 AM	#9
goawayfarm VIP Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fork Union, Virginia Posts: 2,028	Ebay has gotten so ridiculous that if you sell a holster OR any firearm accessory, you can't have a picture of it with the firearm in it. They get scared at just a picture of a firearm. You can't get much more anti-gun than that. It won't be long until they ban ALL firearm related items. __________________ Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

January 24th, 2007, 12:04 PM	#10
cphilip Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 1,447	LOL... didn't even notice the title typo. Doooh! Joisting... that's funny. Ahem... Now... remember, I was not the seller. I was the buyer. But regardless of eBay policy, it did appear to me that he was trying to imply that their reason was the items "could be illegal" to sell. I have heard of holsters being kicked off because the picture used a real gun in the holster. I see many of the auctions putting disclaimers in them. Something like "EBAY DO NOT REMOVE THIS ITEM IS LEGAL TO SELL". Things like that. As if the seller has to point out to them what the rules are. And whats with this theory that "these can harm the eBay community"? Whats that nonsense all about. How is that? They definately should just go ahead and come out and say it. They are Anti-Gun ANYTHING. They just might as well admit it. Which is what I was trying to tell them. __________________ www.cphilip.com Last edited by cphilip; January 24th, 2007 at 12:09 PM..

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