Senderofan

I don't want to seem to be stirring the pot...but...has there been good studies about the frangible rounds in .223? I was thinking in terms of how the bullets perform when shot into various layers of clothing and if they are able to penetrate interior walls.

Also,might there be some situations where the ability to penetrate a wall or door might be very beneficial in a HD situation?

I can see pluses and minuses for each choice of HD firearm. Pistol, shotgun or carbine seem like good choices each. This thread has got me thinking....

Wayne

craze

I too have recently switched to .223 from a shotgun for home defence. Currently my mini-14 once I wring out my new Bushmaster I'll probably switch to that. Lots of good varmit loads out there that should be well suited to home defence. I think the high velocity high energy light weight bullet makes for a good overall combo for defending the castle. A good fragmenting bullet that is capable of expending most if not all of it's 1200 ft/lbs of energy inside a living target ought to go a long way towards discouraging furthur aggression. Having said that I would not want to rely on an interior wall as cover from any .223round.

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born2die

what about the unhealthy sound level of a 223? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the .223 significantly louder than either shotguns or pistols, and indoors it would cause serious hearing damage. I realize less wall penetration might be better than significant hearing damage, but I'm sticking to the 12ga.

downrange

that was the original intend of the military in the first place when it came to 5.56. have the round enter then take a drastic turn inside the body to cause more damage. it was an effective balance having a lower caliber weapon (rather than 7.62 like the AK or M-60) that made for a more "destructive" round in an easier handling weapon. sounds harsh but it's original intent was for war before the civilian models came out. ...even now though, the 7.62 is working it's way back into the military on a larger scale (stayed in the infantry for the most part but spreading out to other units), the M240B and H. a simplistic powerful weapon but not a personal assault weapon (unless your Rambo). i like the AK and the SKS but ...M-4, AR... no substitution. ...that last sentence... my opinion.

hope i'm not off topic.

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MattLarson

At home defense ranges, the round is most likely going to fragment, not tumble.

Everything you never wanted to know about the terminal performance of the 5.56: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m193orm855

Matt

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joe/OH

That was with twelve pine boards stacked right next to one another. A later test on that website (don't have time now to dig it up right now) setup a test with wallboard setup 8 feet apart. After penetrating the first wall, the bullet started to tumble - so badly in fact that it veered off course and I don't beleive it ever even hit the second barrier (due to veering off course).

MattLarson

I wouldn't want to rely on an interior wall as cover against anything more potent than an Airsoft round. Even the "lowly" .22lr is going to go through an interior wall with ease.

Matt

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vernonator

Yup mine too.....

A good .223 frangible round is much safer than just about any other round....

Tangle

That's exactly what I was about to point out. You .223 guys might want to fire a .223 round indoors and see how 'safe' it is. I fully understand the SWAT and LEO deployment of a .223, but it is not and never was intended to be a home defense gun. What are it's advantages?

It holds 20 - 30 rounds? Are we really going to need 20 - 30 rounds of ear bursting .223s in home defense? Have you ever heard of anyone firing anywhere close to 20 rounds in home defense? So if you don't need 20 - 30 rounds, it's not an advantage.

It doesn't penetrate residential barriers well? That can be good or it can be bad. A 9mm penetrates most barriers better than a .223 - that too, can be good or bad, but the 9mm won't have nearly the ear piercing sound blast of a .223.

Superior stopping power? Compared to what? There's lots of dissatisfaction with the stopping power of the .223 in Iraq. Does it have the stopping power of a 12 ga?

I'm not knocking the AR/5.56 per se, it's just that it's better suited for outdoor applications and I'd have to wonder about that. Do we really need to make 200 - 300 yard shots to defend our home?

Then, is a long gun really better for inside the home than a handgun? I have a hard time seeing that as well. It's not like we're defending our homes from roving gangs or that we need a shoulder weapon for longer range accuracy. It's true most could shoot a long gun more accurately, but after that first muzzle blast and night vision destroying muzzle flash of a .223, I'm not so sure the next shots will be so accurate. I'm also not sure you'll be able to hear anything - like a family member calling you.

I realize this is likely to start a range war, but the things I've said here are accurate. And before you disagree, at least be honest enough to fire a .223 in an enclosed room, e.g. an indoor shooting range with no hearing protection and preferably in the dark and see if you want to repeat that in your home.

Then, how many are gonna have an AR available when it's needed? How many are gonna have their handgun available when needed? There's a knock on the door late at night, do you really take your AR to the door, only to find your neighbor has been injured and come to you for help and there you stand with your AR?

My home defense is a pistol because of omni-presence and concealment. My next choice, should it come to that, is a the Beretta Storm in 9mm. It gives improved accuracy and adequate penetration without being excessive. The muzzle flash is almost non-existent, the blast is much less than a .223, it has a muzzle velocity approaching some .357 mag loads, it's smaller and lighter than an AR and holds 20 rounds and uses the same mags as my 92FS or PX4 depending on how I've got it set up. The Storm also gives me the option of night vision.

I have three ARs and an AK-47 - oh yeah and an AR-10 carbine.

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pgrass101

I concur with Tangle.

A pistol is always at hand at home. I like a 9mm carbine becuase I can shoot through walls easily. I know which way I can and cannot shoot in my house to avoid hitting family members rooms. 9mm has less flash and thunder.

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