Tangle

pgrass101,

Shooting through walls is certainly a viable option given the right circumstances. It is my understanding that BGs are being taught in prison to shoot through walls and doors.

If one knows which directions are safe, shooting through walls, using discretion of course, may very well be the best life saving/fight ending option. In a FOF scenario at Gunsite, I was actually asked that if I knew there was a armed threat at the door, why didn't I shoot through the door instead of letting him in so he could shoot at me? I said, "Uhhhhh, because???"

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"Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

pgrass101

That is my understanding, walls are concealment not cover. If a BG takes cover behind a wall and I know what is beyond that wall. I then can shoot thorugh the wall If I choose.

I have talked to many people who are surprised by this. They have never thought of shooting through a wall. Defensive Options Group (http://www.optionsgroup.org/) is a local training program that is pretty good. They stressed the difference between cover and concealment and being aware of what besides the BG is in the direction you are shooting.

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Noli nothis permittere te terere

I am waiting on my personal bailout!!!

Tangle

That's exactly right. However, walls will be better concealment against a .223 than a 9mm. In fact, I've been thinking changing from my 124 gn JHPs to a good 147 gn JHP to enhance 9mm penetration performance even more.

Given you've got a safe background and, that you've identified a threat and his location, shooting through a wall is a great tactic. Even if you don't get great hits, it's gonna force him to move and that's good too. Not too many BGs are gonna hang around after they know you'll shoot and they aren't safe behind that wall.

__________________
"Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

gddyup

In an HD scenario, I will be transitioning from my XD9 to my Mossberg 500 loaded with Federal LE slugs. I get less noise and recoil with the Federal round, though I admit to not testing other rounds yet but that will be coming soon, but for now it's the LE round for HD.

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Firefighter/EMT

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OPFOR

Good and reasonable stuff, Tangle, but I would STRONGLY caution against this: Like they say in the moving picture shows, kids - Don't try this at home! As we all know, hearing loss is immediate and permanent. I don't think we need to try this experiment to know that the 5.56 is louder than the 9mm... I've had the (mis)fortune to be near just about any common military round (9mm, 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, .303 Enfield (don't ask), .45ACP, etc) being fired indoors without ear-pro, and have the hearing loss to prove it (as I'm sure many on here do). It ain't purty.

Also, 5.56 will lose energy more rapidly then, say, 9mm after penetrating one interior wall, but if the BG is right up against that wall there should be plenty of energy [i[right then[/i] to put a serious hurting on him. Where the 5.56N differs from heavier rounds is a foot or so after penetrating a relatively light barrier like an inerior wall - it is then that destabilization/deformation really cause it to dump energy quickly, so it won't go through the next wall or whatever. Just another point to ponder...

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"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

Ryan H

Theres an article on the Box O Truth website that someone recently linked, where a .223 round went straight through a car door and out the other side. If it will go through several layers of steel, hit objects in between them (the seats) and still pass through the other layers of steel and plastic, I wouldn't EVER count on some drywall protecting my family members.

I've on the flip side been unfortunate enough to be in a closed room when a round of 12 gauge bird shot went off. My friend brought me to one of his friend's houses and the idiot aimed it at the ceiling and pulled the trigger, thinking it wasn't loaded. Some people just don't deserve firearms. Anyway, it went through his tile ceiling, through a wooden floor and stopped in the window cills and plaster on the 2nd floor. Somehow it didn't break the glass, which was odd. The blinds and window cills were torn to shreds but no broken glass..

My 12 gauge gets loaded with bird shot. It stops pretty quickly and loses lots of momentum, and the BG would be picking hundreds of pieces of lead out of his/her body as opposed to 8 or 9 of them (buckshot).

Blackeagle

Birdshot just doesn't penetrate enough for me to be confident in it as a self-defense round. Sure, it'll cause the BG a lot of pain, but it isn't going to stop him. I've heard plenty of stories of guys shot with birdshot who are still up and walking around when the paramedics get there. I want something that's going to put the BG on the deck.

Paladin132

I read a report from the FBI that showed that they will penetrate, but that they break up (being a light weight round) and usually loose enough mass / momentum that they don't kill on the other side of the wall.

Tangle

Thank you, OPFOR. I agree 100%. I said it to point out if one hasn't experienced a .223 muzzle blast, not to sluff it off as insignificant. I hope no one would even consider discharging a .223 anywhere without ear protection, much less indoors.

Well made point OPFOR, thanks again.

__________________
"Plans fail, things fail, people fail; but, fear never fails - it must be defeated." - by Tangle, a long time ago.

jeephipwr

In part of the nessage, they say go to 223 because it will penetrate vests, then in the next sentance they say use it at home because it wont be lethal after going thru drywall, that is less denser than a vest?

What am I missing here? How is it going to be lethal thru a vest and not drywall?