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Old May 15th, 2007, 12:32 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jeephipwr View Post
What am I missing here? How is it going to be lethal thru a vest and not drywall?
A 5.56 round is going through pretty much any barrier is going to start tumbling and fragmenting. These fragments are much easier to stop than the intact bullet, and if they do hit someone they'll penetrate much less. Part of the reason it will penetrate less through interior construction is that walls are layered barriers with gaps between them. The first layer starts the round breaking up, and the second layer reduces the velocity of the fragments. A bulletproof vest is a single layer, with flesh immediately behind it. By the time the round starts breaking up, it's already in the target's body.
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Old May 28th, 2007, 12:08 PM   #32
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I just completed the Dynamics of International Terrorism course taught by the USAF Special Ops School. Included is a half-day explosives/weapons demo, which replicated how easily a wall can be penetrated. If you haven't considered shooting through the drywall in a HD situation (given that you absolutely know for sure that there is a BG concealed behind it, and also absolutely sure of what exists beyond the target), then you aren't thinking. This is the whole reason for training and tactics, to practice beforehand what you would do in any given situation so there is no question in your mind whatsoever if that situation ever arises. And practice if you can, try walking around your house in the dark with your long gun (unloaded, of course, or when no one else is home). How practical is it? Personally, I prefer my pistol grip Mossberg Persuader as my primary, with the 120-lumen SureFire attached.

Also try to think beforehand on what you would grab given any situation. I for one would not rely on a single weapon given that I know something bad is going on...screaming, glass breaking inside the house or gunfire would be a good indicator. However, if it is simply a knock at the door at a late hour, then it would be a totally different scenario to deal with. There have been reports of BGs rining a doorbell then hiding behind bushes waiting for the occupants to open the door and walk out to see what is going on. Think about that before you step outside.

One of the greatest benefits of forums such as these is to propose situations and how people would deal with them. I have learned a lot from the responses on here, not all good but most of it is. Thinking about this in advance can make the difference in a bad situation.

Cheers! M2
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Old June 11th, 2007, 10:36 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
It holds 20 - 30 rounds? Are we really going to need 20 - 30 rounds of ear bursting .223s in home defense? Have you ever heard of anyone firing anywhere close to 20 rounds in home defense? So if you don't need 20 - 30 rounds, it's not an advantage.
See The Beckwith Incident. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.


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Originally Posted by Tangle
It doesn't penetrate residential barriers well? That can be good or it can be bad. A 9mm penetrates most barriers better than a .223 - that too, can be good or bad, but the 9mm won't have nearly the ear piercing sound blast of a .223.
Good video: Concealment is NOT Cover


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Originally Posted by Tangle
Superior stopping power? Compared to what? There's lots of dissatisfaction with the stopping power of the .223 in Iraq. Does it have the stopping power of a 12 ga?
To quote from a good conversation:
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I assure you there are many WW2 vets who witnessed some German run off after taking half a clip of .30-06 from their Garand, and likewise, there are Germans who witnessed some GI survive a burst of 8mm from an MG-42. There's more to killing someone than just the size of the bullet. Ballistics are one place where size doesn't necessarily matter.
Plus...
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But again, there are never any guarantees that a bullet will kill immediately, regardless of caliber, unless one makes a T-zone shot. This is a well-known fact by people who know better, but the problem arises here when someone who doesn't know better witnesses a failure to stop--typically soldiers (who frequently know squat about guns beyond what the military has taught them). The failure of a bullet to kill a person rarely has anything to do with the cartridge itself and can usually be explained by physiological, environmental, firearm, and other factors.
And finally...
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There just ain't no such thing as a "wunder bullet." Nothing will do it all, so fill your tool box with the right tools and use the right tool for the job at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle
Then, is a long gun really better for inside the home than a handgun? I have a hard time seeing that as well. It's not like we're defending our homes from roving gangs or that we need a shoulder weapon for longer range accuracy. It's true most could shoot a long gun more accurately, but after that first muzzle blast and night vision destroying muzzle flash of a .223, I'm not so sure the next shots will be so accurate. I'm also not sure you'll be able to hear anything - like a family member calling you.
The Smith Enterprises Vortex and Yankee Hill Phantom take care of that muzzle flash just nicely; the sound's still rough, can't deny that, but if your state permits suppressors...


Speaking from the standpoint of ballistics, the 5.56 is a great CQB round. Perfect? Doubtful. But that's why you have more than one tool in a toolbox, and use what you need when you need it, right? Your handgun if it's on you, your rifle if it's near you, your shotgun if it's near you...


-B
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Old June 12th, 2007, 07:34 AM   #34
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I just completed the Dynamics of International Terrorism course taught by the USAF Special Ops School. Included is a half-day explosives/weapons demo, which replicated how easily a wall can be penetrated.
Cheers! M2
Sir, when, where, and how did you take that course?
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