Ti Carry

I am looking at a couple different models and need to ask some questions.

I do not want an Express model or even an SPS model Remmington.

I am looking for either an 870P model or a Wingmaster model 4985 or like it.

The Wingmaster I am looking at.
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/prod...ducts_id=84777

Questions:

1) Does anyone know a good source to buy the 870P's? They seem hard to come buy. Somebody PM'ed me a good source one time but I lost it when deleting PM's to make room and that one got the ax by accident.

2) Has anyone took a model 870 Wingmaster and turned it into an HD shotgun putting on an 18" bbl and calling it good?

3) Where would one get an 18" bbl for the Wingmaster if I did this?

4) Is the R3 recoil pad's that are out now on the Remmingtons good and does it reduce a good amount of the recoil using 00 buck and slugs or is it just a marketing tool?

5) Feel free to recommend a good option based on what you have read here.

I have several training classes coming up in Sept/Oct and I am lacking an actual defensive shotgun that I will need for them. I have the pistols, the Ar's but no real HD type shotgun. I have many shotgun's but they were handed down to me from my Grandfather an I am not looking to involve them in this project, I want to keep them as they are.

The only bad thing is when you already have them and have had them and have no need to research or even buy a shotgun because I have all the bases covered already other than an HD shotty, I don't know much about what my options are so I need to ask.

I do know I am not interested in an Express or SPS type models.

Thank's for any help!


Ti

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raysheen

I think streichers may have them
here's a nice on here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=76994286
and a MAX if you are looking for that: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=76919989

this is a great way to go IMO...the Wingmaster is a good gun and can make a fine HD weapon for those on a budget...just head out to a local gunshop and they will most likely have one that is fine mechanically...might be ugly but so what, refinish if you like.

Mossberg actually makes a replacement bbl...ebay.com is an option as is gunbroker.com

the R3 is a great pad and makes shooting stout loads much more comfortable. Also take a look at Knoxx industries if you want a pistol grip with good recoil reducing stock.

any reason why you don't want an express? They produce a very decent HD model with an R3 already on it...goes for about $315 brand new...these guns are much better than they get credit for if you ask me and I'd suggest at least handling the HD model if you haven't yet. Finish isn't nearly as nice as the WM, but I don't mind an ugly gun...sort of the Glock of the shotgun world. Price is low but function and reliability are there! This one is $311...great for a class like you are doing http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=77027427
not trying to push you in a direction that you don't want to go, but this is an economical alternative to cutting up a nice wingmaster.

Team American

Ti, that might have been this link:

Territorial Supplies

I just checked their website, and it looks like they are closing out their Remington products...if still current, they have 2 870p's left.

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SIXTO

I have bought a few of the HD's, they are a good value. The only issue I've had is that the forearm is a little longer than the P models, so the hard side mount ammo carrier thingy wont fit. Its easy enough to trim up, or 870 furniture is cheap enough.

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AKsrule

.

.http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=77026580

$487.99

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Ti Carry

Thanks for the responses and links! The close out 870P models look very interesting.

AKsrule, is that not a tact up express model with a green finish and a knoxx stock? The gun look's very cool, I just want a better grade of shotgun such as the P and Wingmaster models. I am sure there is nothing wrong with an express, but I am going to train and practice a great deal with one so I want to better quality, parts, springs and all around fitment and smoother inside finishing details they offer.

I may have to bump up to an 11-87 or an 1100 if I decide against the close out 870P posted. Still deciding!


Ti

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Ti Carry

Here's some good reading that will give you my reasoning as to why not an Express!


Today, ALL Remington 870's are Magnum guns.

The Wingmaster 870 is the top-of-the-line Cadillac.
The Express 870 is the "budget" gun.
The Police 870P is basically the Wingmaster in a police finish and with more police options.

The older police guns even had Wingmaster stamps on them, but when Remington started making the Express model, and started offering a lot more options on the Police guns, they began stamping the gun with Wingmaster, Express, or Police markings.

Here again, is the major differences between the models:

Differences between the Express, Wingmaster, and Police

The Express is Remington's "budget" gun, made to compete with the cheaper to make Winchester and Mossberg guns.

The Wingmaster is Remington’s "Cadillac" top-of-the-line sporting gun.

The Police is a Wingmaster with a dull finish and is a much more carefully inspected and built gun.

How Remington lowered the Express price was to reduce hand labor to a bare minimum, and to eliminate much of the polishing and de-burring the better quality Wingmaster and Police guns get.

The Express is basically the same forged and milled steel receiver and heavy-duty internals gun the better 870's are, just in a rougher, less well finished form with plastic and MIM parts.

The Express Model has:
A plastic trigger group.
The dimples in the mag tube and the new style plastic magazine retention system, EXCEPT on the extended magazine version, which does NOT have the dimples.
A rougher finish inside and outside, with machine marks and some burrs left.
A rougher, bead blasted blue job.
A less polished bore.
A two piece barrel. (not 100% sure about this)
Hardwood or synthetic stock, with a sporting-length fore end and pressed-in checkering.
The Defense version has 18", Cylinder bore barrel, with a bead sight.
Some Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts, like the extractor.

The Wingmaster has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Wingmaster gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing.
A fine, commercial polished blue finish.
A polished bore.
A chrome plated bolt.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut stocks with the famous "Bowling Pin" finish in gloss or satin. and better checkering.
Wide choices in barrel lengths and choke options.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.
The Wingmaster is the full top-of-the-line commercial Remington pump gun, and is priced accordingly.

The 870 Police has:
An aluminum trigger group.
The old style magazine retention system.
A much smoother finish inside and out, no machine marks or burrs.
The Police gun receives a higher level of inspection and finishing and is built in a special area of the plant.
A military-grade parkerized finish.
A polished bore.
A one piece barrel.
Walnut or synthetic stock, with a short police-length fore end.
The Remington “R3” super recoil pad that reduced felt recoil by 30%.
Choices in different stocks, including Speed-feed, and others.
18" to 20" improved cylinder barrel, with a wide choice in sights, including rifle, ghost ring, and luminous.
Police options like magazine extenders, forearms with built-in lights, and sling swivels.
Heavy-duty magazine spring.
Heavy-duty trigger-sear spring.
Heavy-duty shell lifter spring.
Sling swivel mounts.
No use of MIM parts, the extractor is milled.

The Express is a "bottom of the line" budget gun, the Wingmaster is a "top of the line" sporting gun, the Police is the top-of-the-line in defense guns.
The 870's are generally considered to be the finest quality pump gun made.

Here also is what Remington says about the Police gun:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market.
It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality.
All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences.
It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models.
Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police.
To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.


Ti

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Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

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SIXTO

Holy cow Ti, nicely done. The only thing thats not quite right is the two piece barrel thing on the express... well its not true with the HD guns anyway.

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Ti Carry

It is nicely done but I can't take credit for it. I thought I put the source down but it's not there now.

dfariswheelfrom THR is a wealth of information on shotguns and especially the Remington line, he get's all the credit for that post.


Ti

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cvhoss

You may want to look at this

Hoss

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