Carbine Crazy- PC4 to use Glock mags? - Page 4

Cap'n · October 11th, 2007, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIXTO

No, there is no gun that will do it all.

I do figure that I can kept 3 or 4 times as much pistol ammo on hand than I can rifle... just due to cost and resupply issues. If the PCC can do 98% of the work I dont need near as much rifle ammo as I thought I would.

Good point! When I changed directions concearning PCC's, my ammo stock has increased drastically.

And as has been mentioned, if you have a failure with your PCC, you can just use your ammo for your pistols. No dedicated caliber for a dedicated rifle.

It's a win, win situation.

Cap'n · October 11th, 2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

Of course, there is the other side:

Hornady TAP FPD 9mm 124gr
MV: 1110 fps
ME: 339 ft./lbs.

Hornady TAP FPD .223 60gr
MV: 3115 fps
ME: 1293 ft./lbs.

I don't know about you, but if I have to shoot to stop a lethal threat, I have a pretty good idea which way I'd choose to go....

Matt

Matt, I totally agree that the .223 has a lot more power behind it. I think this is the reason I'm also concearned with the .223. I'm no ballistics expert and don't ever claim to be, but with the .223 traveling at 3115 fps while shooting at a target at 25-50 yds or less, isn't it possible that the bullet will not yaw at impact and instead produce a .223 cal. through and through hole. On the other hand, a 9mm JHP will be at max speed and max expansion of the hollow point should occur. Like I said, I'm no expert and please correct me if I'm totally off base here.

older gunner · October 11th, 2007, 02:34 AM

I'll add my $.02. I bought a Winchester 1894 lever action in .357 Mag. It's not a carbine that will take pistol mags, but I bought it after Katrina as a home defense option for lawless situations where more than one villain might be lurking and I wanted some striking distance plus the added accuracy of the rifle. I bought the Winchester because I wanted a piece of the history before they folded, I love lever actions, and I had beacoup rounds of .357. I'm very satisfied with the choice. It shoots great and is a hell of a stopper up to about 100 yds, which is as far as I can see to shoot anyway.

MattLarson · October 11th, 2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap'n_America

Matt, I totally agree that the .223 has a lot more power behind it. I think this is the reason I'm also concearned with the .223. I'm no ballistics expert and don't ever claim to be, but with the .223 traveling at 3115 fps while shooting at a target at 25-50 yds or less, isn't it possible that the bullet will not yaw at impact and instead produce a .223 cal. through and through hole. On the other hand, a 9mm JHP will be at max speed and max expansion of the hollow point should occur. Like I said, I'm no expert and please correct me if I'm totally off base here.

FMJ at those ranges will fragment in the body and make a big mess.

The civilian/police defensive loads are designed to expand, so they should be quite a bit more effective.

Everything you never wanted to know about 5.56mm FMJ terminal performance: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fragrange

Matt

SIXTO · October 11th, 2007, 11:38 AM

I'm not worried about what the .223 does after it hits the target. I am worried about what it will do if I miss. There is no doubt that the .223 is a better choice for a war, but a typical urban/suburban senario I'm not so sure anymore.
To me though, that really isnt the issue when deciding if a PCC is a good idea or not. Its all about utility, function and supply.

MattLarson · October 11th, 2007, 02:25 PM

As I recall, studies have shown that with proper ammo selection, the .223 is actually less likely to be a threat to the neighbors, as it tends to break up when it hits structural materials.

Of course, to each their own - if one gun could do it all, there would be only one gun on the marked and we'd all be BORED.

Matt

SIXTO · October 11th, 2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

As I recall, studies have shown that with proper ammo selection, the .223 is actually less likely to be a threat to the neighbors, as it tends to break up when it hits structural materials.

Of course, to each their own - if one gun could do it all, there would be only one gun on the marked and we'd all be BORED.

Matt

Agreed, it does. I have no doubts about that. Key though, is when or if it hits structural materials before an innocent

Bob The Great · October 11th, 2007, 06:15 PM

so, can anyone give a PCC newb a list of options? Thus far, I know about these carbines, but others seem to get referenced that I haven't heard of.

Beretta CX4 - Not a fan of the thumbhole stock or the swoopy lines, but it looks like a nice gun otherwise.
Hi-Point Carbine - Hideous, like not just ugly, but circus-ugly, omg. Everyone seems to consider them POS's.
Ruger PC - Nice carbine, so it seems. I'd prefer a pistol grip stock, but that's just me.
HK USC - Priced like an HK and hamstringed with thumbhole stock and 10rd mags only.
HK94 Clones? - From what I can tell, these are super-rare and weren't very reliable to start with.

What else? The more I think about this, the more I want a PCC. (dang it, sixto, you started this)

[edit]
I'm aware there are a couple of lever-action carbines out there too, but I'm researching semi's for now, with an eye towards an indoors HD gun. But, I'd appreciate lever-action opinions too. Never hurts to be informed.

[/edit]

SIXTO · October 11th, 2007, 06:29 PM

Kel Tec Sub2000, Marlin Camp 9 and .45, AR.

I chose the Ruger, it seems to fill the bill without being terribly expensive. I'll do a rnge report once its in my hands.

Chooie · October 12th, 2007, 09:18 PM

What about a combo like a 7 or 8 round S&W 686/Taurus Tracker in .357 and a Marlin lever action .357? I think I would rather have that particular combo in a SHTF/survivalist situation vs. say, 9mm or .40 S&W pistol/carbine. I'd probably think the opposite were true if we somehow found ourselves in a war zone, though.

October 11th, 2007, 11:38 AM	#35
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 10,436	I'm not worried about what the .223 does after it hits the target. I am worried about what it will do if I miss. There is no doubt that the .223 is a better choice for a war, but a typical urban/suburban senario I'm not so sure anymore. To me though, that really isnt the issue when deciding if a PCC is a good idea or not. Its all about utility, function and supply. __________________ In a land of sheep, even a toothless wolf is king. "We don't have to worry about the cost of my federal programs because at my last visit to Long John Silver's I got a map to pirate treasure." - Obama

October 11th, 2007, 02:25 PM	#36
MattLarson Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2,510	As I recall, studies have shown that with proper ammo selection, the .223 is actually less likely to be a threat to the neighbors, as it tends to break up when it hits structural materials. Of course, to each their own - if one gun could do it all, there would be only one gun on the marked and we'd all be BORED. Matt __________________ Hope is not a plan.

October 11th, 2007, 06:15 PM	#38
Bob The Great Distinguished Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Slidell, LA Posts: 1,468	so, can anyone give a PCC newb a list of options? Thus far, I know about these carbines, but others seem to get referenced that I haven't heard of. Beretta CX4 - Not a fan of the thumbhole stock or the swoopy lines, but it looks like a nice gun otherwise. Hi-Point Carbine - Hideous, like not just ugly, but circus-ugly, omg. Everyone seems to consider them POS's. Ruger PC - Nice carbine, so it seems. I'd prefer a pistol grip stock, but that's just me. HK USC - Priced like an HK and hamstringed with thumbhole stock and 10rd mags only. HK94 Clones? - From what I can tell, these are super-rare and weren't very reliable to start with. What else? The more I think about this, the more I want a PCC. (dang it, sixto, you started this) [edit] I'm aware there are a couple of lever-action carbines out there too, but I'm researching semi's for now, with an eye towards an indoors HD gun. But, I'd appreciate lever-action opinions too. Never hurts to be informed. [/edit] __________________ "A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed." Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?

October 11th, 2007, 06:29 PM	#39
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Here and There Posts: 10,436	Kel Tec Sub2000, Marlin Camp 9 and .45, AR. I chose the Ruger, it seems to fill the bill without being terribly expensive. I'll do a rnge report once its in my hands. __________________ In a land of sheep, even a toothless wolf is king. "We don't have to worry about the cost of my federal programs because at my last visit to Long John Silver's I got a map to pirate treasure." - Obama

October 12th, 2007, 09:18 PM	#40
Chooie Distinguished Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,582	What about a combo like a 7 or 8 round S&W 686/Taurus Tracker in .357 and a Marlin lever action .357? I think I would rather have that particular combo in a SHTF/survivalist situation vs. say, 9mm or .40 S&W pistol/carbine. I'd probably think the opposite were true if we somehow found ourselves in a war zone, though. __________________ -Joe Quando omni flunkus, moritati. Virginia Citizens Defense League Rustburg, VA Volunteer Rescue Squad

October 11th, 2007, 02:34 AM	#33
older gunner Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 613	I'll add my $.02. I bought a Winchester 1894 lever action in .357 Mag. It's not a carbine that will take pistol mags, but I bought it after Katrina as a home defense option for lawless situations where more than one villain might be lurking and I wanted some striking distance plus the added accuracy of the rifle. I bought the Winchester because I wanted a piece of the history before they folded, I love lever actions, and I had beacoup rounds of .357. I'm very satisfied with the choice. It shoots great and is a hell of a stopper up to about 100 yds, which is as far as I can see to shoot anyway.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode