Thinking about a carbine - Page 2

KC135 · September 3rd, 2005, 07:17 PM

Marlin .357 with 20" barrel and set of peep sights [no batteries required] should do a good job for your purpose.

I use a 44 Special/Mag with the same setup, and the load I use, uses a 180gr JHP at 1250fps from 4" handgun [44 Special], and I'll guess [will chrono Monday] around 1600 to 1700fps from the 20" Marlin.

Euclidean · September 3rd, 2005, 09:39 PM

I've recently purchased an 1894 in .44 Magnum and I do not regret it at all. I don't think it's the idea gun by any stretch of the imagination but for me it made a lot of sense:

1.) I plan to start reloading in the upcoming months. .44 Magnum is a chambering that lends itself to much diversity and a good place to start

2.) I will always love revolvers, so getting rifles in revolver calibers makes a lot of sense for me

3.) It fits right behind my seat

4.) No one will question it as it could easily be a deer rifle where I live (lots of short shots)

5.) Easily maintained

6.) I like lever action rifles for no good reason

7.) I honestly feel that I can probably lay out as much meaningful fire with this rifle as I could with something more "evil" looking

I think I had a thread on this somewhere....

RSSZ · September 4th, 2005, 09:14 PM

Euc, Something else is that even the 16" carbines will hold at least 7 rds. and most will hold 9 or 10.(44spec rds.)This is true for the non .30-30ies and the like. That's not bad firepower.

ExSoldier · September 4th, 2005, 09:24 PM

Euc if you want high capacity get an AR15 with collapsible stock. But remember that FIREPOWER isn't volume of fire, it's HITS. Accuracy beats noise everytime. I'd rather the satisfying thump of the .30-30. But OTOH, there is a certain balance in having a handgun chambered for the carbine, too. That's one reason the .44-40 caught on in the old west. But that was a pretty insipid round. If I were going to go this route I'd get a revolver in 45LC and a lever action in 45LC. Maybe the Ruger Alaskan and you'd have three guns while carrying only two.

AutoFan · September 5th, 2005, 12:50 AM

If you are using rifled slugs (or have a rifled barrel) out of your shotgun, you will be able to reach out and touch someone to 100 yards. And if you can't kill something with a 12 gauge, you should be running like hell!

Personally, I'm looking for a M1 Carbine - loaded with softpoints it will definitely do the job.

ExSoldier · September 5th, 2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutoFan

Personally, I'm looking for a M1 Carbine - loaded with softpoints it will definitely do the job.

Why would you want a carbine in such an anemic round? The M1 Carbine was something of a JAM-A-Matic, too, especially the Glenfield reproductions and those made by other manufacturers. I've fired this round in a SA handgun and it's a pretty soft kicker. Your soft point ammo (I've only seen military ball myself), has to have enough ooomph to expand, and I doubt the round will generate this from factory ammo. Handloads might work well, though.

gregarat · September 6th, 2005, 08:44 AM

I vote for the lever-action. Eather .357, .44 or .30-30. Its relyable easy to reload, and is compact, and has power.

I have a 94 Winchester that was made in the early 40's, that my grandfather shot over 60 bucks with. I myself have taken 4 bucks with the very same .30-30. My Dad has taken 2 blackbears with this cartrage.

He can accuratly cycle his lever-action .30-30 Marlin as fast as some can shoot a semi-auto AR15. I am more than confident that this rifle would send a human into the next world, without a problem. Is anyone as confinent about a .30 cal, 9mm, .40 or .223? Personaly I would heasetent shoot a scrawny yote a long range with a .223 (well mabe, yotes deserve only to be shot on sight). So you might only have a 8-10 round tube instead of a 30 rd mag, but were talking home defence not a war.

I love the .30-30 so much its my main barrel for hunting big game, with a handgun.

'

AutoFan · September 6th, 2005, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExSoldier762

Why would you want a carbine in such an anemic round? The M1 Carbine was something of a JAM-A-Matic, too, especially the Glenfield reproductions and those made by other manufacturers. I've fired this round in a SA handgun and it's a pretty soft kicker. Your soft point ammo (I've only seen military ball myself), has to have enough ooomph to expand, and I doubt the round will generate this from factory ammo. Handloads might work well, though.

Well, it is an anemic round compared to a 7.62x39 or a 30-30. Compared to a handgun round out of a carbine length gun, it is smoking.

The GI versions do not jam, so long as the parts are in spec and you maintain it (just like any other gun).

It is very easy to control in rapid fire (soft kicker). I hunted deer in Michigan with softpoints, and the deer always seemed to go down with a shot or two. The softpoints are available from (at least) Federal and Remington.

The real problem with the round is a lack of modern bullets designed for its velocity envelope. Finding a hollowpoint designed for it would be awesome.

HotGuns · September 6th, 2005, 09:08 PM

Im goin with ExSoldier on this one...

Since you are going to buy a carbine, do it right and leave the ancient crap to the sportsmen out there.

You are wanting the maximun efficient tool in a SHTF scenario. There is none better than the AR with the collapsible stock.

Reasons...

quick reload cabability that beats any lever action hands down...

you can carry many mags of .223 in a nice compact container like a mag pouch and the bullets are small and not near as heavy as most others...

ammo is everywhere....even cops and military use it...

rifle is packable, put it beside an Alice pack with the stock collapsed and you wont know your'e humping it....

Need to clear a house ? Leave the stock collapsed...its more handy than a longer rifle...

Accuracy. Flat shooting out to 300 yards when the other calibers mentioned have rainbow trajectories...

Need a scope ? Put in on. Dont need it ? Take it off. Takes all of a minute and the zero is repeatable.

Parts availablity. Its easier to get AR componets and they are everywhere...

A monkey with a pin punch can change out any part in the lower reciever. Can you change the firing pin in your lever action carbine when it breaks ?

Can you change out the barrel if you sit on it by accident and bend it ? With the AR you can chunk the top half in the lake and replace it with another ...

You can mount a bayonet on it. Dont laugh...in a SHTF scenario, that bayonet had more physcological value than you think. Some trying to take your stuff may think you wont shoot them but NOBODY will risk getting a bayonet in the gut.

Its better suited to shooting form a barricade. The pistol grip allows more of you to stay behind cover when shooting.

Need more reason to do it right ?

Sure..,lever action carbines are great if thats all you have. Since you are starting from scratch, why not use some new technology ? Dont handicap yourself with the last centurys stuff.

Euclidean · September 6th, 2005, 10:36 PM

Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively.

I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too.

Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners.

Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it...

I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win.

You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win.

You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly.

You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly.

No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too.

Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time.

At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. See that's okay when you're a sheedog. Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn.

Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid.

I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment.

Okay rant over.

September 3rd, 2005, 07:17 PM	#11
KC135 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Indiana Posts: 742	Marlin .357 with 20" barrel and set of peep sights [no batteries required] should do a good job for your purpose. I use a 44 Special/Mag with the same setup, and the load I use, uses a 180gr JHP at 1250fps from 4" handgun [44 Special], and I'll guess [will chrono Monday] around 1600 to 1700fps from the 20" Marlin. __________________ Keep the shotgun handy!!

September 3rd, 2005, 09:39 PM	#12
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	I've recently purchased an 1894 in .44 Magnum and I do not regret it at all. I don't think it's the idea gun by any stretch of the imagination but for me it made a lot of sense: 1.) I plan to start reloading in the upcoming months. .44 Magnum is a chambering that lends itself to much diversity and a good place to start 2.) I will always love revolvers, so getting rifles in revolver calibers makes a lot of sense for me 3.) It fits right behind my seat 4.) No one will question it as it could easily be a deer rifle where I live (lots of short shots) 5.) Easily maintained 6.) I like lever action rifles for no good reason 7.) I honestly feel that I can probably lay out as much meaningful fire with this rifle as I could with something more "evil" looking I think I had a thread on this somewhere.... __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

September 4th, 2005, 09:24 PM	#14
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,211	Euc if you want high capacity get an AR15 with collapsible stock. But remember that FIREPOWER isn't volume of fire, it's HITS. Accuracy beats noise everytime. I'd rather the satisfying thump of the .30-30. But OTOH, there is a certain balance in having a handgun chambered for the carbine, too. That's one reason the .44-40 caught on in the old west. But that was a pretty insipid round. If I were going to go this route I'd get a revolver in 45LC and a lever action in 45LC. Maybe the Ruger Alaskan and you'd have three guns while carrying only two. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

September 6th, 2005, 10:36 PM	#20
Euclidean VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 3,213	Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively. I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too. Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners. Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it... I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win. You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win. You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly. You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly. No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too. Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time. At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. See that's okay when you're a sheedog. Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn. Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid. I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment. Okay rant over. __________________ I am The Armed Educator.

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September 4th, 2005, 09:14 PM	#13
RSSZ Distinguished Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 1,847	Euc, Something else is that even the 16" carbines will hold at least 7 rds. and most will hold 9 or 10.(44spec rds.)This is true for the non .30-30ies and the like. That's not bad firepower.

September 5th, 2005, 12:50 AM	#15
AutoFan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Sunshine State Posts: 945	If you are using rifled slugs (or have a rifled barrel) out of your shotgun, you will be able to reach out and touch someone to 100 yards. And if you can't kill something with a 12 gauge, you should be running like hell! Personally, I'm looking for a M1 Carbine - loaded with softpoints it will definitely do the job.

September 6th, 2005, 08:44 AM	#17
gregarat Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Central NYS Posts: 856	I vote for the lever-action. Eather .357, .44 or .30-30. Its relyable easy to reload, and is compact, and has power. I have a 94 Winchester that was made in the early 40's, that my grandfather shot over 60 bucks with. I myself have taken 4 bucks with the very same .30-30. My Dad has taken 2 blackbears with this cartrage. He can accuratly cycle his lever-action .30-30 Marlin as fast as some can shoot a semi-auto AR15. I am more than confident that this rifle would send a human into the next world, without a problem. Is anyone as confinent about a .30 cal, 9mm, .40 or .223? Personaly I would heasetent shoot a scrawny yote a long range with a .223 (well mabe, yotes deserve only to be shot on sight). So you might only have a 8-10 round tube instead of a 30 rd mag, but were talking home defence not a war. I love the .30-30 so much its my main barrel for hunting big game, with a handgun. '

September 6th, 2005, 09:08 PM	#19
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,184	Im goin with ExSoldier on this one... Since you are going to buy a carbine, do it right and leave the ancient crap to the sportsmen out there. You are wanting the maximun efficient tool in a SHTF scenario. There is none better than the AR with the collapsible stock. Reasons... quick reload cabability that beats any lever action hands down... you can carry many mags of .223 in a nice compact container like a mag pouch and the bullets are small and not near as heavy as most others... ammo is everywhere....even cops and military use it... rifle is packable, put it beside an Alice pack with the stock collapsed and you wont know your'e humping it.... Need to clear a house ? Leave the stock collapsed...its more handy than a longer rifle... Accuracy. Flat shooting out to 300 yards when the other calibers mentioned have rainbow trajectories... Need a scope ? Put in on. Dont need it ? Take it off. Takes all of a minute and the zero is repeatable. Parts availablity. Its easier to get AR componets and they are everywhere... A monkey with a pin punch can change out any part in the lower reciever. Can you change the firing pin in your lever action carbine when it breaks ? Can you change out the barrel if you sit on it by accident and bend it ? With the AR you can chunk the top half in the lake and replace it with another ... You can mount a bayonet on it. Dont laugh...in a SHTF scenario, that bayonet had more physcological value than you think. Some trying to take your stuff may think you wont shoot them but NOBODY will risk getting a bayonet in the gut. Its better suited to shooting form a barricade. The pistol grip allows more of you to stay behind cover when shooting. Need more reason to do it right ? Sure..,lever action carbines are great if thats all you have. Since you are starting from scratch, why not use some new technology ? Dont handicap yourself with the last centurys stuff.