Thinking about a carbine - Page 3

Bud White · September 6th, 2005, 10:56 PM

Skip the 308 with the forward mounted scope but toher than that great post if ya want a 308 get one with normal scope the scout rifles feel odd to shoot

ExSoldier · September 6th, 2005, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud White

Skip the 308 with the forward mounted scope but toher than that great post if ya want a 308 get one with normal scope the scout rifles feel odd to shoot

First couple of times I used a DOT sight with both eyes open I felt the same way. I expect that I'd get used to the forward mount pretty quick. That's the purpose you know, FAST sight picture acquisition. I'd love to get the M1A SOCOM 16 with an EO Holosight. That's do me just fine out to about 400 meters I expect. Beyond that I've got my M1A Super Match (tuned by a SEAL sniper) and range finding Shepherd Scope. That's out to about 900 meters. Beyond that I'll need a radio and some Apache choppers. Fast movers will do, too, but it's less fun.

ExSoldier · September 6th, 2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euclidean

Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively.

I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too.

Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners.

Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it...

I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win.

You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win.

You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly.

You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly.

No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too.

Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time.

At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. [b]See that's okay when you're a sheedog.[b] Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn.

Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid.

I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment.

Okay rant over.

Hey I pretty much agree with your post. Use what you've got and use it well. Beware the man with only one gun. He likely knows how to use it. Semi's are used mostly for the spray and pray factor.

But don't kid yourself or me, Euc. You're a sheepdog thru and thru. I know many and you fit the profile.

HotGuns · September 6th, 2005, 11:28 PM

Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively.

Why would I do that ? Thats a GOOD thing !

I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too.

Hmmm. Around here its 129 for the receiver and about 375 for the rest of it.And if you do it right there is precious little tweaking.

Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners.

Perhaps.

Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it...

Nah. Most engagments are over in 3.2 shots. Ya just got to be quicker on the draw...

I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win.

I certainley hope so.

You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win.

Maybe. As long as it aint a FAT hippie...

You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly.

More than likely. Dont have to be a marine though. It could be a bad guy that knows how to use what they have. They ARE out there...

You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly

If that Marine is dumb enough to bring a rock to a gunfight,if you dont kill him first, somebody else will...

No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too.

That'll work. But a bolt action against a semi auto is even worse than a lever action.
Ask the Germans or the Japs how a bolt action fares against a semi.

Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time.

Not true.
Our young men in IRAQ are so much better trained than the average enemy combatant that its not even a fair fight most of the time. Even so, we still lose some good men everyday. There is much more to the equation than just being able to "pull the trigger".

At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. See that's okay when you're a sheedog. Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn.

They did it till the threat was stopped. Completely.

Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid.

Yep. Thats the difference between a civilian shooting to save his life or being engaged in an all out war, where collateral damge dont matter so much.

I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment.

Euc...I dont think you are being realistic here. Im a fan of lever action guns myself. I have owned several and even own a few now. They do a great job for the job they are intended for. As I already stated, if that all you have got, thats great. Its definatley better than nothing.

ANY Semi auto carbine will win hands down against a lever action, I dont care how good you are with it. I'e got 30 maybe 40 shots to your 5,7 or maybe 15 if its a .22. I can fire them all and reload a freash magazine while you are fumbling the shells in your hand and reloading them one by one.

As for the pray and spray, while you are levering your shots one at a time Im spraying 30 or so at you and the odds of you getting hit with at least one are exellent. If lever actions reigned supreme in a battle, our Marines and every other serviceman would still be equipped with them. But they arent,are they? We still have the best trained, best equipped troops in the world, and they are carrying M-16's. This great country of our is one of the few in the world that allow its civilians the opportunity to own one of the the premier battle rifles in the world...minus the full auto stuff and you can still get that if your state allows it.

So here's part of the picture that you may not have seen. In any combat environment, you MUST be prepared for the worst case scenario, whether its a SHTF situation in Lake New Orleans or is some God forsaken country where the only thing that grows is sand. You must have at least as good a weapon as your adversary, because if you dont, you are outgunned. No amount of training is gonna help the average man if you are limited by your tools. If the enemy, whether it be a looter or a hard core trained fanatical Muslim that wants to die for Allah wants to kill you, you 're gonna need all the help you can get. In a situation like that, how silly is a lever action gonna feel to you then ? :AR15firin

Okay rant over.

ExSoldier · September 6th, 2005, 11:57 PM

Hot Guns says: But a bolt action against a semi auto is even worse than a lever action. Ask the Germans or the Japs how a bolt action fares against a semi.

That's trained soldier against trained soldier, almost always eyeball to eyeball. But the Mujahadeen beat the Roooskies in the 1970's often with 1770's era muzzle loaders against AK-47's. Geronimo fought a standing army to a standstill in the Oklahoma territories and his guys had Bow & Arrow and more important, knives (cold steel, warm throats, soft moccasins) against falling block Sharps and later on lever actions.

HotGuns: No amount of training is gonna help the average man if you are limited by your tools. If the enemy, whether it be a looter or a hard core trained fanatical Muslim that wants to die for Allah wants to kill you, you 're gonna need all the help you can get. In a situation like that, how silly is a lever action gonna feel to you then?

I completely disagree with that concept. Army Rangers and US Marines started out as "average men" What makes the difference? Training and mindset. You acquire the latter along with the former. It just gets easier with experience.

Outgunned? Spray and Pray? Nobody ever died from a loud noise. Only hits count. The odds that you'll hit in a spray and pray situation are actually astronomical over the odds of the single aimed shot by a skilled marksman. I fear the skilled marksman. If I must I'll pit my training over his, but I won't like it. Gimme the spray and pray mucho macho man anyday. I'll flank him and cut his throat because he'll be too busy gleefully pumping lead where he thought I was until it's too late for him to know the truth and he'll never hear me coming.

Guys like this almost never work as a trained team with a twosome, so they can have some security out to keep me from cutting his throat while he's happily banging away.

Don't get me wrong, I much prefer long range with my M1A, but as I said, if you're good with what you've got, you really DON'T need anything else. If I've got a .22 I can get a rifle in a bigger caliber. If I get that.... in similar fashion I can acquire something bigger, like a TANK under the right conditions.

tanksoldier · September 7th, 2005, 12:06 AM

Gotta go with Euc and Ex on this one.

I am a Soldier, I'm pretty good at it, I'm more than familiar with an M-16 style weapon, I've engaged and killed the enemy with smallarms, I've withstood both indirect and direct enemy fire. One good shot is worth a whole magazine of spray-and-pray.

I'll take a .357 wheelgun and carbine over any M-16 clone for my personal, private self defense.

HotGuns · September 7th, 2005, 12:15 AM

True enough Ex...

the key word is "average"
Rangers and Marines can hardly be considered "average". At least not the ones I've known.

a good man can do amazing things with little equipment.

But if you are gonna pick up a rifle thats been liberated from a bad guy with your .22, you will pick up the better tool for the job right ?

Personally,If I gonna have to shoot Id much rather do it with my scoped .308 or 300 mag. Even so, Im gonna carry the M16 shorty for up close and personal. The beauty of it is that its light enough and compact enough to be able to do it.

HotGuns · September 7th, 2005, 12:22 AM

BTW...Ex..

By the time the Soviets took on the Mujaheeden, most of them had .303 Enfields,M-1's, M1A's and a host of other weapons from everycounty in the world that had ever been there. The AK was a highly prized weapon.

The Russians made a severe miscaculation. They overlooked over 1100 warring tribes as being a crediblt threat. What they didnt see happening was the fact that soon after they invaded, it was made into a "Jihad" which meant the muslims that had been fighting each other now had to unite to expell the enemy from their homeland. They put aside their differences and now had a common cause.

That was all it took. The rest is history...
or so Ive been told...

ExSoldier · September 7th, 2005, 12:26 AM

I've known many Rangers, SEALS, Force Recon and Special Forces (aka Green Berets). My very best friend since 1972 when we were high school buds, is a retired LTC of Special Forces and a combat vet of Gulf War #1. I'll say it again...their TRAINING is what makes them special. Otherwise, they're just regular guys. Most are a little more quiet than other guys, especially in social situations.

HotGuns · September 7th, 2005, 12:30 AM

Dont know about them SEALS.

The ones I knew never shut up...

September 6th, 2005, 11:28 PM	#24
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,183	Curse me for buying guns that fly under the gun grabber's radar that I already know how to use more effectively. Why would I do that ? Thats a GOOD thing ! I guess I could go throw down $700 for the AR 15 parts and bolt it together, and then spend $550 on a complete set of spare parts sans lower receiver. Oh and spend a while tweaking it too. Hmmm. Around here its 129 for the receiver and about 375 for the rest of it.And if you do it right there is precious little tweaking. Or I could just spend $700 and get two complete lever action rifles that will outlast me and their next 3 owners. Perhaps. Oh btw I CCW a revolver most of the time. I love being told how I'm going to die horrifically for it... Nah. Most engagments are over in 3.2 shots. Ya just got to be quicker on the draw... I tell you what. You put me out in the field with a lever action rifle against some hippy who hates guns and arm him with any rifle you want. I win. I certainley hope so. You put me out in the field with a .22 caliber pistol against the same person in the same situation. I still win. Maybe. As long as it aint a FAT hippie... You put me out there with my lever action rifle against a US Marine armed with the fantastic plastic gun of the week. I lose horribly and quickly. More than likely. Dont have to be a marine though. It could be a bad guy that knows how to use what they have. They ARE out there... You give me all of that Marine's Equipment and give him a rock. I still lose horribly and quickly If that Marine is dumb enough to bring a rock to a gunfight,if you dont kill him first, somebody else will... No, when I really want to "do it right", I'll get that bolt action .308 with the forward scope mount like Cooper told me too. That'll work. But a bolt action against a semi auto is even worse than a lever action. Ask the Germans or the Japs how a bolt action fares against a semi. Don't get me wrong I want want want a lot of the cool EBRs (typical...) and I even want to learn how to use them (not as typical...), but it ain't about the hardware it's the software and I'm not talking about marksmanship or shooting technique. I'm talking about the ability to be able to pull the trigger, which I have, and the ability to do it with no hesitation whatsoever under the worst conditions imaginable, which I don't have and probably never will. That's the reason I win against the hoplophobe every time, that's the reason the Marine wins against me every time. Not true. Our young men in IRAQ are so much better trained than the average enemy combatant that its not even a fair fight most of the time. Even so, we still lose some good men everyday. There is much more to the equation than just being able to "pull the trigger". At any rate, even the very best in the world who have the best software available have been known to spray and pray when it goes down. My uncle as an LEO saw two officers shoot in self defense, real veterans with lots of training and expertise. Both of them emptied their gun into their assailant, and both of them commented they just did it, not out of fear or anger, they just did it even though they knew better. See that's okay when you're a sheedog. Darn a Marine emptied a magazine into a mosque. Shoot, he might have killed another terrorist. Darn. They did it till the threat was stopped. Completely. Now in my situation as a civilian, if I do that, well lookie there I just killed someone's grandmother. Or, heaven forbid, a 15 year old kid. Yep. Thats the difference between a civilian shooting to save his life or being engaged in an all out war, where collateral damge dont matter so much. I'll stick to meaningful, controlled firepower thank you. The lever action rifle moves as fast as my target acquisition skills do. It scores as many hits in 10 seconds as my SKS does. Maybe someday I'll be so magically good that the manual action actually slows me down, but that's not the truth for me at the moment. Euc...I dont think you are being realistic here. Im a fan of lever action guns myself. I have owned several and even own a few now. They do a great job for the job they are intended for. As I already stated, if that all you have got, thats great. Its definatley better than nothing. ANY Semi auto carbine will win hands down against a lever action, I dont care how good you are with it. I'e got 30 maybe 40 shots to your 5,7 or maybe 15 if its a .22. I can fire them all and reload a freash magazine while you are fumbling the shells in your hand and reloading them one by one. As for the pray and spray, while you are levering your shots one at a time Im spraying 30 or so at you and the odds of you getting hit with at least one are exellent. If lever actions reigned supreme in a battle, our Marines and every other serviceman would still be equipped with them. But they arent,are they? We still have the best trained, best equipped troops in the world, and they are carrying M-16's. This great country of our is one of the few in the world that allow its civilians the opportunity to own one of the the premier battle rifles in the world...minus the full auto stuff and you can still get that if your state allows it. So here's part of the picture that you may not have seen. In any combat environment, you MUST be prepared for the worst case scenario, whether its a SHTF situation in Lake New Orleans or is some God forsaken country where the only thing that grows is sand. You must have at least as good a weapon as your adversary, because if you dont, you are outgunned. No amount of training is gonna help the average man if you are limited by your tools. If the enemy, whether it be a looter or a hard core trained fanatical Muslim that wants to die for Allah wants to kill you, you 're gonna need all the help you can get. In a situation like that, how silly is a lever action gonna feel to you then ? :AR15firin Okay rant over. Last edited by QKShooter; September 7th, 2005 at 12:27 AM.

September 6th, 2005, 11:57 PM	#25
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,209	Hot Guns says: But a bolt action against a semi auto is even worse than a lever action. Ask the Germans or the Japs how a bolt action fares against a semi. That's trained soldier against trained soldier, almost always eyeball to eyeball. But the Mujahadeen beat the Roooskies in the 1970's often with 1770's era muzzle loaders against AK-47's. Geronimo fought a standing army to a standstill in the Oklahoma territories and his guys had Bow & Arrow and more important, knives (cold steel, warm throats, soft moccasins) against falling block Sharps and later on lever actions. HotGuns: No amount of training is gonna help the average man if you are limited by your tools. If the enemy, whether it be a looter or a hard core trained fanatical Muslim that wants to die for Allah wants to kill you, you 're gonna need all the help you can get. In a situation like that, how silly is a lever action gonna feel to you then? I completely disagree with that concept. Army Rangers and US Marines started out as "average men" What makes the difference? Training and mindset. You acquire the latter along with the former. It just gets easier with experience. Outgunned? Spray and Pray? Nobody ever died from a loud noise. Only hits count. The odds that you'll hit in a spray and pray situation are actually astronomical over the odds of the single aimed shot by a skilled marksman. I fear the skilled marksman. If I must I'll pit my training over his, but I won't like it. Gimme the spray and pray mucho macho man anyday. I'll flank him and cut his throat because he'll be too busy gleefully pumping lead where he thought I was until it's too late for him to know the truth and he'll never hear me coming. Guys like this almost never work as a trained team with a twosome, so they can have some security out to keep me from cutting his throat while he's happily banging away. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer long range with my M1A, but as I said, if you're good with what you've got, you really DON'T need anything else. If I've got a .22 I can get a rifle in a bigger caliber. If I get that.... in similar fashion I can acquire something bigger, like a TANK under the right conditions. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

September 7th, 2005, 12:06 AM	#26
tanksoldier Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,130	Gotta go with Euc and Ex on this one. I am a Soldier, I'm pretty good at it, I'm more than familiar with an M-16 style weapon, I've engaged and killed the enemy with smallarms, I've withstood both indirect and direct enemy fire. One good shot is worth a whole magazine of spray-and-pray. I'll take a .357 wheelgun and carbine over any M-16 clone for my personal, private self defense. __________________ "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr. "Drive fast and eat cheese!"

September 7th, 2005, 12:26 AM	#29
ExSoldier VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Coral Gables, FL Posts: 4,209	I've known many Rangers, SEALS, Force Recon and Special Forces (aka Green Berets). My very best friend since 1972 when we were high school buds, is a retired LTC of Special Forces and a combat vet of Gulf War #1. I'll say it again...their TRAINING is what makes them special. Otherwise, they're just regular guys. Most are a little more quiet than other guys, especially in social situations. __________________ Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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September 6th, 2005, 10:56 PM	#21
Bud White VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elsewhere Posts: 17,476	Skip the 308 with the forward mounted scope but toher than that great post if ya want a 308 get one with normal scope the scout rifles feel odd to shoot

September 7th, 2005, 12:15 AM	#27
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,183	True enough Ex... the key word is "average" Rangers and Marines can hardly be considered "average". At least not the ones I've known. a good man can do amazing things with little equipment. But if you are gonna pick up a rifle thats been liberated from a bad guy with your .22, you will pick up the better tool for the job right ? Personally,If I gonna have to shoot Id much rather do it with my scoped .308 or 300 mag. Even so, Im gonna carry the M16 shorty for up close and personal. The beauty of it is that its light enough and compact enough to be able to do it.

September 7th, 2005, 12:22 AM	#28
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,183	BTW...Ex.. By the time the Soviets took on the Mujaheeden, most of them had .303 Enfields,M-1's, M1A's and a host of other weapons from everycounty in the world that had ever been there. The AK was a highly prized weapon. The Russians made a severe miscaculation. They overlooked over 1100 warring tribes as being a crediblt threat. What they didnt see happening was the fact that soon after they invaded, it was made into a "Jihad" which meant the muslims that had been fighting each other now had to unite to expell the enemy from their homeland. They put aside their differences and now had a common cause. That was all it took. The rest is history... or so Ive been told...

September 7th, 2005, 12:30 AM	#30
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,183	Dont know about them SEALS. The ones I knew never shut up...