Thinking about a carbine - Page 4

ExSoldier · September 7th, 2005, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotGuns

BTW...Ex..

By the time the Soviets took on the Mujaheeden, most of them had .303 Enfields,M-1's, M1A's and a host of other weapons from everycounty in the world that had ever been there. The AK was a highly prized weapon.

The Russians made a severe miscaculation. They overlooked over 1100 warring tribes as being a crediblt threat. What they didnt see happening was the fact that soon after they invaded, it was made into a "Jihad" which meant the muslims that had been fighting each other now had to unite to expell the enemy from their homeland. They put aside their differences and now had a common cause.

That was all it took. The rest is history...
or so Ive been told...

Speaking as a History Teacher....AHEM: The AK was highly prized as a trophy because it usually was a sign that the bearer had personally killed the former owner. Yes they were valuable weapons, but until the MUJ supply lines got the ammo into their regular logistical chains, the ammo was fairly problematical. But it was exactly like an Apache Brave with a whole skew of white scalps on his belt. Fear and respect were heaped upon his name. Although, to be fair, the scalping idea never originated with the native Americans. That was an invention of the British during the French and Indian War.

Jihad doesn't always work that way: aka as a uniter. Look at the months just post 911. The first 100 days to be precise. We put 100 operators into Afghanistan to work with the WarLords of the Northern Alliance and with their help (once properly trained and with close air support) within 100 days our guys had killed over 30,000 AQ and Taliban with negligible casualties on our side.

Read the book, THE HUNT FOR BIN LADEN: TASK FORCE DAGGER by Robin Moore. Yes the same Robin Moore that wrote the book and movie the Green Berets during 'Nam. The only journalist to ever go thru the Airborne Course and the Q course and actually go along on SF ops. This old guy did so again over there. It shows the reverence to which he is held by the SF that they not only let him, but they really took care of the old guy.... but it gives the details on these ops.

P95Carry · September 7th, 2005, 12:33 PM

Wow - this thread took right off!! Some excellent pro's and con's in both directions. Good stuff guys, this what good forum debate is all about - invaluable.

rocky · September 7th, 2005, 01:21 PM

What ever carbine you can use effectively will work. My choice is a AR due to the ease of repair, use and avalible ammo resupply. Also the gun can be configured many diffrent ways. Long barrel for long shots, carbine for closer work. All in minutes if ya have diffrent uppers.

Rob72 · September 9th, 2005, 11:53 AM

There is also an upper out now that allows the quick-change of barrels, with two locking-lever cams. Small Arms Review likes it, and Shea & Co aren't as easily "bought" as most gun-rags. ($500 up fron for the complete upper, from there, you only have to buy the desired length barrel with gas tube & front sight, +/- $200, vs. $300-$500 each for varied complete uppers.)

OD · September 9th, 2005, 06:41 PM

tanksoldier,

A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington. The ol' 30WCF (30/30) is much more than a 150 yard cartridge. Here's a link to Leverguns.com, stop in and ask your question and get some answers from folks who know the .357 Magnum in carbine & rifle form.

http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2

HotGuns · September 9th, 2005, 08:48 PM

A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington. The ol' 30WCF (30/30) is much more than a 150 cartridge

Actually, the .35 Remington is a more versatile round, escpecially in the lever format. I used to have a Marlin .35 and it was sweet. I whacked a few deer with it and it did it with authority. Like a dummy I trade it off for something else and I have been kicking myself ever since.

The thing is, if you reload you can use any .38 bullet. I used to load semiwadcutter 158 grainers that were accurate and very pleasant to shoot.
125's HP's worked OK too and I experimented with them quite a bit.

Once I figured out how to hold the scope, I used to shoot squirrels with those 158 grainers during deer season. It didnt mess them up and it was a simple thing to load or unload as you needed them. So you could have an easy shooting round for one thing or a deer slaying full powered round for another.

OD · September 9th, 2005, 11:11 PM

Quote:

The thing is, if you reload you can use any .38 bullet.

Exactly, the same applies to the .357 magnum.

HotGuns · September 10th, 2005, 12:13 AM

A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington.

Except that there is a discernable difference in "power"...

These are the figures for the .35 Remington using a 180 grain FN bullet.This was calculated with a JBM Ballistic Program and reloading data from Accurate Arms.

Range Velocity Energy
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 2071.0 1714.2
100 1915.7 1466.7
200 1768.2 1249.6
300 1629.3 1060.9
400 1499.7 898.9
500 1381.3 762.6

Compare these to the figures for the same flat nose bullet in the .357 magnum beggining with a rather generous speed of 1293 FPS at the muzzle.Adding another 200 FPS due to the carbine length barrel brings it up to 1493 FPS. This would be a fairly warm load for a .357 Magnum loaded with a 180 grain bullet.

Range Velocity Energy
(yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)
0 1493.0 890.9
100 1375.2 755.9
200 1271.0 645.7
300 1181.0 557.4
400 1108.7 491.3
500 1050.8 441.3

You may notice that .35 Remington has more energy at 400 yards than the .357 starts out with.

Also consider that many states use the generally accepted minimum energy formula for deer hunting which is 1000 ft-lbs of energy which puts the .357 as just barely acceptable out to 100 yards and technically not even legal to hunt with in those states.

Ill take the 35 Rem. over the .357 any day of the week. You can download the .35, but uploading the .357 dosent really do much. The .35 is a rifle round and the .357 is a pistol round. Lots of difference there...

The only real advantage to the .357 is the ability to use a .357 chambered pistol along with the carbine so that only one ammo must be carried. At the distances a that carbine is used anyway, it would be a fair combination.

OD · September 10th, 2005, 12:17 AM

Fortunately, deer can't read.

HotGuns · September 10th, 2005, 12:25 AM

Yep...dead is dead.

Dont matter if its .22 or a .50 BMG.

September 7th, 2005, 12:33 PM	#32
P95Carry Assistant Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: South West PA Posts: 25,366	Wow - this thread took right off!! Some excellent pro's and con's in both directions. Good stuff guys, this what good forum debate is all about - invaluable. __________________ Chris - P95 NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!." If a BG dies as the result of pointing a gun at me, then he has merely succumbed to an occupational hazard of being a thug

September 9th, 2005, 06:41 PM	#35
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 2,735	tanksoldier, A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington. The ol' 30WCF (30/30) is much more than a 150 yard cartridge. Here's a link to Leverguns.com, stop in and ask your question and get some answers from folks who know the .357 Magnum in carbine & rifle form. http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2 __________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper* Last edited by OD; September 9th, 2005 at 11:09 PM.

September 10th, 2005, 12:13 AM	#38
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,184	A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington. Except that there is a discernable difference in "power"... These are the figures for the .35 Remington using a 180 grain FN bullet.This was calculated with a JBM Ballistic Program and reloading data from Accurate Arms. Range Velocity Energy (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) 0 2071.0 1714.2 100 1915.7 1466.7 200 1768.2 1249.6 300 1629.3 1060.9 400 1499.7 898.9 500 1381.3 762.6 Compare these to the figures for the same flat nose bullet in the .357 magnum beggining with a rather generous speed of 1293 FPS at the muzzle.Adding another 200 FPS due to the carbine length barrel brings it up to 1493 FPS. This would be a fairly warm load for a .357 Magnum loaded with a 180 grain bullet. Range Velocity Energy (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) 0 1493.0 890.9 100 1375.2 755.9 200 1271.0 645.7 300 1181.0 557.4 400 1108.7 491.3 500 1050.8 441.3 You may notice that .35 Remington has more energy at 400 yards than the .357 starts out with. Also consider that many states use the generally accepted minimum energy formula for deer hunting which is 1000 ft-lbs of energy which puts the .357 as just barely acceptable out to 100 yards and technically not even legal to hunt with in those states. Ill take the 35 Rem. over the .357 any day of the week. You can download the .35, but uploading the .357 dosent really do much. The .35 is a rifle round and the .357 is a pistol round. Lots of difference there... The only real advantage to the .357 is the ability to use a .357 chambered pistol along with the carbine so that only one ammo must be carried. At the distances a that carbine is used anyway, it would be a fair combination. Last edited by HotGuns; September 10th, 2005 at 12:27 AM.

September 10th, 2005, 12:17 AM	#39
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 2,735	Fortunately, deer can't read. __________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper*

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September 7th, 2005, 01:21 PM	#33
rocky Senior Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MI Posts: 11,767	What ever carbine you can use effectively will work. My choice is a AR due to the ease of repair, use and avalible ammo resupply. Also the gun can be configured many diffrent ways. Long barrel for long shots, carbine for closer work. All in minutes if ya have diffrent uppers.

September 9th, 2005, 11:53 AM	#34
Rob72 VIP Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: OKC, OK Posts: 3,047	There is also an upper out now that allows the quick-change of barrels, with two locking-lever cams. Small Arms Review likes it, and Shea & Co aren't as easily "bought" as most gun-rags. ($500 up fron for the complete upper, from there, you only have to buy the desired length barrel with gas tube & front sight, +/- $200, vs. $300-$500 each for varied complete uppers.)

September 9th, 2005, 08:48 PM	#36
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,184	A .357 in a carbine is a great deer gun, with the right loads it gives up very little to the .35 Remington. The ol' 30WCF (30/30) is much more than a 150 cartridge Actually, the .35 Remington is a more versatile round, escpecially in the lever format. I used to have a Marlin .35 and it was sweet. I whacked a few deer with it and it did it with authority. Like a dummy I trade it off for something else and I have been kicking myself ever since. The thing is, if you reload you can use any .38 bullet. I used to load semiwadcutter 158 grainers that were accurate and very pleasant to shoot. 125's HP's worked OK too and I experimented with them quite a bit. Once I figured out how to hold the scope, I used to shoot squirrels with those 158 grainers during deer season. It didnt mess them up and it was a simple thing to load or unload as you needed them. So you could have an easy shooting round for one thing or a deer slaying full powered round for another.

September 10th, 2005, 12:25 AM	#40
HotGuns Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 5,184	Yep...dead is dead. Dont matter if its .22 or a .50 BMG.