Does a pistol caliber carbine have any useful defensive purpose? - Page 3

QKShooter · May 26th, 2008, 08:58 AM

I am neutral to cold on most pistol caliber carbines.
Especially the 9s.

Though I might bite on a 9mm or .45acp long gun equipped with a drum magazine.
I could see some advantage there with super high capacity.

.44 Mag (and up) makes a bit more sense to me in a nice short carbine.

falcon1 · May 26th, 2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

Why use a pistol caliber when you can use a rifle caliber, out of curiosity? If you just want a pistol-caliber carbine, by all means get one, but if you have the option between a pistol or rifle caliber carbine for self defense, why short-change yourself?-B

I have a rifle too.

Footslogger · May 26th, 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

Why use a pistol caliber when you can use a rifle caliber, out of curiosity? If you just want a pistol-caliber carbine, by all means get one, but if you have the option between a pistol or rifle caliber carbine for self defense, why short-change yourself?

-B

Standardization, simplicity, and cheaper rounds is all I can come up with. If you own all Glock 9mm pistols, and a carbine that accepts 9mm Glock magazines I would imagine life would be easier. Especially with multiple shooters, sharing mags and ammo would be a breeze. If you need to hunt or reach out beyond 100 yds it sure wouldn't be a good solution.

This concept certainly wouldn't work for me... as I like a little flavor in my collection.

crzy4guns · May 26th, 2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattLarson

For me, a pistol caliber carbine gives you all the disadvantages of a rifle (size primarily) without the advantages.

Pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles - even when the pistol is very long with a stock.

Matt

Ditto.

Janq · May 26th, 2008, 04:34 PM

Question...
For purely HD purposes why would a person need knockdown power out to or beyond 100yds?

Nobody here lives inside a football field/stadium so concern for range out to that very far end or greater seems to me to be moot, toward HD in real world applications without speaking toward fictional attack of zombies.
When ones residence toward home defense is say 50' or much less wide and/or deep then having a rifle with 100 yd. MOA accuracy and stopping power capability seems to me to be an unnecessary concern/desire.

Further in most every state it's going to be pretty darn hard to justify a HD shooting out to distances of 100 yds. Most folks can't even see that far out without visual aids muchless identify positively their target as being friend or foe.
This applies to rural land and farming type residence folk too.

If you were expecting trouble and had need to keep them at bay _and_ had time and opportunity to prepare for their arrival then yes a rifle firing rifle cartridges would then make more sense. But when is the last time such a need for any US homeowner was realistic, at 100yds. and beyond?

Meanwhile back to reality and what does occur most often in regard to home defense be it urban, suburban, rural, or middle of nowhere remote one does not know or have time/ability/forewarning to observe their attacker coming from 100yds. or more away.
For incursions measured in tens of feet or less a pistol chambered carbine will do the job handily from .38 and up. Call it what you will be it a big higher velocity pistol or a scaled down lower powered rifle. Just don't call a pistol chambered carbine late to the fight to save ones life or for agricultural types their bacon and other produce.
Predators be they two or four legged are not going to laugh at getting hit by a .38/9mm/.40/.357 Magnum/.45/.45LC if the shooter does his/her part in applying accuracy and employing proper judgment as to shot count. Meaning if the first round doesn't stop it then hit it again, and again, and again, and again, and...until your magazine goes empty or the predator has stopped you.

Our forefathers employed long barreled pistols and pistol chambered carbines for over 100 yrs. and survived as well as thrived using as much including the .22LR to .44-40 and .45 LC to defend themselves their homes and property as well as livestock against predators of all sort.
It's hard for me to discount a long history of successful defense function as being today incapable toward protection of ones self and home within close quarter conditions, to which 100 yds. is not applicable.

- 'Chuck Connors'

Superhouse 15 · May 26th, 2008, 04:39 PM

We rent a couple of carbines at the range. A Thompson .45 and 9mm and .40 Hi points. People who can barely hit with a pistol out to 60 feet can get fast, good hits with the carbine. For a shooter who can't hit with a pistol or who can't stand the recoil of a shotgun, it's a fine chioce. If you want to go cheap on ammo or one kind of magazine, also good for that. Ballistic testing aside, some folks just can't justify blasting a high velocity rifle round around their neighborhood. Local P.D. bought Kel Tecs that use Glock 22 magazines because the Chief wanted one well aimed shot instead of a blast of buckshot and didn't want to justify a full power (.223

)rifle. Even though they could have had M16s from the government for next to nothing or free they budgeted for the KT. I own a Camp .45 and a PC9 Ruger that were both bought to be SHTF guns to share ammo and magazines with what I was carrying at the time. Went to the AR system a few years ago, though.

firestarplus · May 26th, 2008, 04:43 PM

Ruger PC9 is 34 3/8" overall length, my Mav 88 with 18.5" barrel and Knoxx Specops stock (shorter than standard stock) is 38 1/2" overall (with stock unfolded). So I wouldnt say that the carbine has a size disadvantage in HD use at least compared to the much heralded HD shotgun.

OPFOR · May 26th, 2008, 04:44 PM

Reduced noise, reduced recoil, interoperability, less expensive ammo, plenty of hitting power at HD ranges, less penetration issues (depending upon ammo selection, of course)... The PCC has a lot going for it as an HD weapon. If you want to go with an SBR, they make even more sense - rifles lose a lot of their effectiveness and gain a lot of noise and flash when you start cutting barrels down. PCCs are also easier to suppress, if you want to go that route... Don't write them off just because they don't fit some Rambo idea of a "real" gun.

mtcraigco · May 26th, 2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janq

Meanwhile back to reality and what does occur most often in regard to home defense be it urban, suburban, rural, or middle of nowhere remote one does not know or have time/ability/forewarning to observe their attacker coming from 100yds. or more away.
For incursions measured in tens of feet or less a pistol chambered carbine will do the job handily from .38 and up. Call it what you will be it a big higher velocity pistol or a scaled down lower powered rifle. Just don't call a pistol chambered carbine late to the fight to save ones life or for agricultural types their bacon and other produce.
Predators be they two or four legged are not going to laugh at getting hit by a .38/9mm/.40/.357 Magnum/.45/.45LC if the shooter does his/her part in applying accuracy and employing proper judgment as to shot count. Meaning if the first round doesn't stop it then hit it again, and again, and again, and again, and...until your magazine goes empty or the predator has stopped you.

Our forefathers employed long barreled pistols and pistol chambered carbines for over 100 yrs. and survived as well as thrived using as much including the .22LR to .44-40 and .45 LC to defend themselves their homes and property as well as livestock against predators of all sort.
It's hard for me to discount a long history of successful defense function as being today incapable toward protection of ones self and home within close quarter conditions, to which 100 yds. is not applicable.

- 'Chuck Connors'

I would also add to that and say that I would have a real hard time putting my .308 M1A Scout Squad into action in a home defense scenario for very real concerns about over penetration, excessive blast when used indoors, and a host of other reasons, all of which are negated with a sort, handy carbine in any of the aforementioned calibers.

Poo Poo them all you want, but there are times when a pistol caliber carbine can do things that neither a rifle nor a pistol can do as well. And in an urban or home defense situation, that is even more true.

MattLarson · May 26th, 2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janq

Question...
For purely HD purposes why would a person need knockdown power out to or beyond 100yds?

Forget 100 yards - how about 20 feet?

You've got the opportunity to deliver 1 round to a BG in your home before he reaches your wife / child / pet.

Choice 1 - 60 Gr - 3115 FPS - 1293 ft/Lbs.
Choice 2 - 147 Gr - 975 FPS - 310 Ft/ Lbs.

I know which one I would be more confident in....

Matt

May 26th, 2008, 08:58 AM	#21
QKShooter Assistant Administrator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Runthegun, USA Posts: 18,776	I am neutral to cold on most pistol caliber carbines. Especially the 9s. Though I might bite on a 9mm or .45acp long gun equipped with a drum magazine. I could see some advantage there with super high capacity. .44 Mag (and up) makes a bit more sense to me in a nice short carbine. __________________ *Support Our Troops* How Very Fortunate You Are To Have Two Arms To Put Into A Ward 57 T-Shirt. DC MEMBERS ~ PLEASE BUY A WARD 57 SHIRT. Click Here.

May 26th, 2008, 04:34 PM	#25
Janq VIP Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,575	Question... For purely HD purposes why would a person need knockdown power out to or beyond 100yds? Nobody here lives inside a football field/stadium so concern for range out to that very far end or greater seems to me to be moot, toward HD in real world applications without speaking toward fictional attack of zombies. When ones residence toward home defense is say 50' or much less wide and/or deep then having a rifle with 100 yd. MOA accuracy and stopping power capability seems to me to be an unnecessary concern/desire. Further in most every state it's going to be pretty darn hard to justify a HD shooting out to distances of 100 yds. Most folks can't even see that far out without visual aids muchless identify positively their target as being friend or foe. This applies to rural land and farming type residence folk too. If you were expecting trouble and had need to keep them at bay _and_ had time and opportunity to prepare for their arrival then yes a rifle firing rifle cartridges would then make more sense. But when is the last time such a need for any US homeowner was realistic, at 100yds. and beyond? Meanwhile back to reality and what does occur most often in regard to home defense be it urban, suburban, rural, or middle of nowhere remote one does not know or have time/ability/forewarning to observe their attacker coming from 100yds. or more away. For incursions measured in tens of feet or less a pistol chambered carbine will do the job handily from .38 and up. Call it what you will be it a big higher velocity pistol or a scaled down lower powered rifle. Just don't call a pistol chambered carbine late to the fight to save ones life or for agricultural types their bacon and other produce. Predators be they two or four legged are not going to laugh at getting hit by a .38/9mm/.40/.357 Magnum/.45/.45LC if the shooter does his/her part in applying accuracy and employing proper judgment as to shot count. Meaning if the first round doesn't stop it then hit it again, and again, and again, and again, and...until your magazine goes empty or the predator has stopped you. Our forefathers employed long barreled pistols and pistol chambered carbines for over 100 yrs. and survived as well as thrived using as much including the .22LR to .44-40 and .45 LC to defend themselves their homes and property as well as livestock against predators of all sort. It's hard for me to discount a long history of successful defense function as being today incapable toward protection of ones self and home within close quarter conditions, to which 100 yds. is not applicable. - 'Chuck Connors' __________________ "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

May 26th, 2008, 04:39 PM	#26
Superhouse 15 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 775	Carbines We rent a couple of carbines at the range. A Thompson .45 and 9mm and .40 Hi points. People who can barely hit with a pistol out to 60 feet can get fast, good hits with the carbine. For a shooter who can't hit with a pistol or who can't stand the recoil of a shotgun, it's a fine chioce. If you want to go cheap on ammo or one kind of magazine, also good for that. Ballistic testing aside, some folks just can't justify blasting a high velocity rifle round around their neighborhood. Local P.D. bought Kel Tecs that use Glock 22 magazines because the Chief wanted one well aimed shot instead of a blast of buckshot and didn't want to justify a full power (.223)rifle. Even though they could have had M16s from the government for next to nothing or free they budgeted for the KT. I own a Camp .45 and a PC9 Ruger that were both bought to be SHTF guns to share ammo and magazines with what I was carrying at the time. Went to the AR system a few years ago, though.

May 26th, 2008, 04:44 PM	#28
OPFOR VIP Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Baghdad Posts: 2,286	Reduced noise, reduced recoil, interoperability, less expensive ammo, plenty of hitting power at HD ranges, less penetration issues (depending upon ammo selection, of course)... The PCC has a lot going for it as an HD weapon. If you want to go with an SBR, they make even more sense - rifles lose a lot of their effectiveness and gain a lot of noise and flash when you start cutting barrels down. PCCs are also easier to suppress, if you want to go that route... Don't write them off just because they don't fit some Rambo idea of a "real" gun. __________________ "It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

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May 26th, 2008, 04:43 PM	#27
firestarplus Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: western south dakota Posts: 115	Ruger PC9 is 34 3/8" overall length, my Mav 88 with 18.5" barrel and Knoxx Specops stock (shorter than standard stock) is 38 1/2" overall (with stock unfolded). So I wouldnt say that the carbine has a size disadvantage in HD use at least compared to the much heralded HD shotgun.