Janq

Agreed Craig, 100%.

- Janq

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

OPFOR

Matt, aside from crating a very specific scenario (and a very unlikely one, at that) to support your preconceived ideas, you are also reducing a field of hundreds of caliber/bullet weight choices down to two - hardly a fair comparison.

Unfortunately, we must make our carry/HD decisions based on a wide spectrum of variables...in your scenario, I'd want a scoped, high powered rifle, but that is obviously a terrible choice for almost all other HD scenarios. A PCC is not ideal for all situations, but it is pretty good for many of them, and should not be overlooked simply because a rifle can pack more wallop in one round than can a PCC - there are just too many other things to consider.

__________________
"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

MattLarson

You may have misunderstood my comment. I doubt you really want a scoped, high-powered rifle for a 20 foot encounter indoors.

For me, if I am going to accept the added constraints of carbine size and weight, I want the additional power. It's a personal choice, and one size does not fit all.

My point is that a rifle caliber carbine is not just for 100 yard+ defense.

Matt

__________________
Hope is not a plan.

OPFOR

Agreed. The point is that you are accepting noise, recoil, flash, penetration (perhaps), and other things for that power. You are absolutely right, though, that it is not a one-size fits all decision, and we are lucky that there are so many choices out there!

__________________
"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

ICTsnub

I'll confess, the only reason I bought a Thompson with a 100 round drum was because of the AWB. If the Administration thought 11 rounds was evil, 100 must be great!

......But, after watching news footage 08/05 in NOLA, it looked more like Somalia. If a tornado split the Wichita metro in two, and all hell broke loose, I will put a Wally World box of WWB in the drum, and wind 15 turns. Forget the New York reload, give me the Chicago typewriter with carbon paper. (ask someone over 40 what carbon paper is)

BigEFan

So, I'll bite. As Janq said, a more realistic home defense situation is 50' or maybe a little more. At these lengths wouldn't a good shotgun be superior to a carbine or a rifle?

__________________
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

Colin

It depends on who is using the carbine or the HD gun. while you may be very good with your pistol or shotgun, how much have the other members in your houshold practiced with them? There is no way I will ever get my wife to shoot more than one round out of a shotgun, so that's out. She likes my .22cal pistols and rifles and I seriously considered a 10/22 with 25 rd mag, but find they don't feed reliably. However the Storm is light enough and the recoil so reduced that she will like to shoot it. Plus with a laser in CQB all she has to do is point and shoot even from the hip. It improves the odds she will use it and will hit what she is shooting at. Far more important than the perfect bullet that is never used.

BAC

I don't see how. Fewer rounds, slower follow-up, no data to support a notion of superior ballistics, heavier, etc. Did I miss anything?


-B

BigEFan

There are some very nice, light shooting semi-auto shotguns out there that your wife might actually enjoy. There are a ton of women involved in shotgun sports. You just have to find the right gun and the right caliber (probably a 20 gauge). My wife practices with the shotgun at least twice a year, which, unfortunately is as much as she likes to practice with any gun. Does she like shooting the Shotgun, NOPE, but I haven't bought her a good one yet either. Does she realize the potential of a shotgun and will she use it in a HD situation, I am confident she will

Second, chalk me up as one of those who is of the opinion that the person who relies on the laser is likely to regret it. A reliance on lasers, in my opinion is a recipe for disaster. OMO If you insist you can always attach a laser to a shotgun.

Finally, I also believe that the learning curve on a shotgun is far less than that of a shotgun. Unless one is shooting slugs, shotguns have always been about point shooting and when it comes to combat, pointing, from what I have learned is what you will end up doing.

Keep in mind that when I fire one of my home defense round, the BG will have 15 .30 caliber pellets coming at him at a distance that is likely to be way less than 50 feet. Two pulls of the trigger and if I do my job, which by the way it will be easier for me to do my job with a shotgun than a rifle, 30 projectiles will be in the BG, not bad I'd say. I guess superior ballistics is a subjective term.

__________________
Lex et Libertas — Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus, et Fidelis!

"Not only do the people who put their lives on the line to protect the rest of us deserve better, we all deserve better than to have our own security undermined by those who undermine law enforcement." -Thomas Sowell

BAC

Not really. The human body is extremely resilient; countless individuals (soldiers and otherwise) have taken as many small holes and still continued/lost-but-lived/won- the fight, so volume doesn't necessarily equate to effectiveness. Do those pellets penetrate reliably (as defined by the FBI standards of penetration) and provide a wound channel capable of consistently stopping someone physiologically (since we can't rely on psychologically), like rifle ammunition? Generally speaking a rifle has superior ballistics. I'll defer to someone better versed in shotgun ballistics than I am, though. The only comparisons I've ever drawn were handgun-to-rifle, so I don't have data for much else.

Keep in mind that in one shot you have fifteen .30-caliber pellets to account for, too, and they are much more likely to penetrate dry wall and housing materials than 5.56 NATO. Two shots means thirty such pellets to account for.


-B