Concerns with using a rifle for home defense - Page 2

dukalmighty · July 16th, 2008, 03:34 PM

A good shotty for HD trumps a rifle #1 00 buck 2 3/4" has 9 pellets,chances of over penetration with collateral damage very minimal,better chance of hitting the target in a high stress situation,

imatt · July 16th, 2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMH

As mentioned already in this thread, a rifle for HD is a hotly debated topic, mostly due to penetration issues.

I personally think that not having a combat rifle available is foolish. 2A is about keeping the government in check; this requires arms similar to what the government uses.

From a HD standpoint, there have been way too many civil unrest situations where I would prefer a rifle over a sidearm. American history is riddled with such situations, i.e.: The Detroit Riot of 1967, The Tulsa, Oklahoma Race Riot of 1921, The Los Angeles riots of 1992, etc.

Ahh yes you speak of riot situations. A rifle would be a bit more acceptable there - I think most here are taking middle of the night type scenarios. Agreed that every home needs a good combat rifle. For overnight protection I prefer something with less potential for collateral damage.

BAC · July 16th, 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matiki

This is a contentious subject that comes up often here. If you use the search function you will probably find a lot of threads about it.

That he would. Anyway, there's a reason 5.56 caliber rifles are becoming more commonly used as indoors weapons. They are much, much less likely (using proper ammo) to over-penetrate than pistol and shotgun ammo.

-B

SIXTO · July 16th, 2008, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC

That he would. Anyway, there's a reason 5.56 caliber rifles are becoming more commonly used as indoors weapons. They are much, much less likely (using proper ammo) to over-penetrate than pistol and shotgun ammo.

-B

This could not be more true, its a matter of physics.

Anyway, I think a PCC is an ideal HD weapon but a 5.56 carbine can fill two roles as well.
I've been working on finding the right PCC for about a year now, and have come to the conclusion I will have to build my own to get what I want.
I also feel that no home arsenal is complete without a good handy shotgun, such as a pump or coach gun.

pgrass101 · July 16th, 2008, 04:12 PM

My primary HD weapon is a M1 Carbine. Which I consider to be a pistol caliber carbine.

The reason I went with the M1 Carbine over a shotgun is for the simple reason that my wife likes to shoot the carbine.

As far as penetration is concerned I would rather over penetrate than under penetrate

762 · July 16th, 2008, 04:16 PM

My other concern is my wife...she is petite and she shot a 12g and it almost took her off her feet. i want her to be confident/comfortable with the weapon she will have to use if i am not around.

She has handled the AK well and has her own XD.

SIXTO · July 16th, 2008, 04:24 PM

A PCC is perfect then IMO. They are easy to shoot and have plenty of power for the job at hand.

sniper58 · July 16th, 2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgt/ret

Considering the possibility of over penetration from a rifle I prefer a 12ga shotgun loaded with #4 buck for a back-up to my 1911.

+1 - yeah, what he said! Rifle's a bit strong and I don't have a PCC.

SIXTO · July 16th, 2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniper58

I don't have a PCC.

You're in luck, I've figured out how to solve that problem.

Chuck R. · July 16th, 2008, 11:06 PM

Here's some decent info on 5.56/.223.

"Penetration tests conducted by department range staff and several other highly respected experts have resulted in the following conclusions (see accompanying chart for numbers):

"The first thing you notice is the startling over-penetration of the typical jacketed hollowpoint pistol bullet once its nose is packed with an inert substance. The second thing you notice is that the over-penetration effect of .223 rifle ammo may have been highly over-rated.

Selecting Home Defense Ammunition | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

Here's another:
Results

Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.
CCI Gold Dot.

Summary
The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the over penetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

Olympic Arms, Inc. - Real World .223 Testing d=26

Chuck

July 16th, 2008, 03:34 PM	#11
dukalmighty VIP Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: texas Posts: 6,393	A good shotty for HD trumps a rifle #1 00 buck 2 3/4" has 9 pellets,chances of over penetration with collateral damage very minimal,better chance of hitting the target in a high stress situation, __________________ I like Poetry,Long Walks On The Beach,And Poking Dead Things With A Stick

July 16th, 2008, 04:12 PM	#15
pgrass101 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,656	My primary HD weapon is a M1 Carbine. Which I consider to be a pistol caliber carbine. The reason I went with the M1 Carbine over a shotgun is for the simple reason that my wife likes to shoot the carbine. As far as penetration is concerned I would rather over penetrate than under penetrate __________________ Noli nothis permittere te terere "If ignorance is bliss then shouldn’t most people happy?" -Thomas Jefferson-

July 16th, 2008, 04:24 PM	#17
SIXTO VIP Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 12,258	A PCC is perfect then IMO. They are easy to shoot and have plenty of power for the job at hand. __________________ _________________ \|^^^^^^^^^^^^^\| \|___ \| SIXTO EXPRESS---\| \|\|'\|";,__. \|_..._...___________\| \|\|_\|_\|...,] "(@)'(@)""""\|(@)(@)*****(@)

July 16th, 2008, 11:06 PM	#20
Chuck R. Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leavenworth, KS Posts: 280	Here's some decent info on 5.56/.223. "Penetration tests conducted by department range staff and several other highly respected experts have resulted in the following conclusions (see accompanying chart for numbers): "The first thing you notice is the startling over-penetration of the typical jacketed hollowpoint pistol bullet once its nose is packed with an inert substance. The second thing you notice is that the over-penetration effect of .223 rifle ammo may have been highly over-rated. Selecting Home Defense Ammunition \| American Handgunner \| Find Articles at BNET Here's another: Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet .223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces .223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented .40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed .40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation .40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation .40S&W wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation 12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed * these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall. CCI Gold Dot. Summary The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the over penetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition. The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin. When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5". Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot. Olympic Arms, Inc. - Real World .223 Testing d=26 Chuck __________________ homo homini lupus est

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July 16th, 2008, 04:16 PM	#16
762 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 722	My other concern is my wife...she is petite and she shot a 12g and it almost took her off her feet. i want her to be confident/comfortable with the weapon she will have to use if i am not around. She has handled the AK well and has her own XD.