Newbie to AR's, lots of questions - Page 3

OD · December 6th, 2005, 10:05 PM

Just Rogue Warrior was non-fiction, correct?

ExSoldier · December 6th, 2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky

I think the 5.56mm cartridge doesn't perform as well for the military due to the use of FMJ only. Hps or soft points really enhance the performance. Haven't tried the Hornady TAP ammo yet, but have heard it performs well. Also , its all about application. 7.62 penetrates better, but is alot heavier to carry, ammo too.

You also have to remember the mission of the SEALs: They are to infiltrate undetected deep into enemy territory. Penetrate and accomplish their objective and exfil without major contact. If they get into major firefights and the mission is compromised, they are FUBAR. So they don't need to carry a ton of ammo for an M16. It would also help, I would think, to have ammo in common that could be stripped from the links of the M60 and used in an M14. For the same reason, I think that if they carried M16's or M4's they would also carry 5.56mm Squad Automatic Weapons (SAW). The shorty M14 was created in conjunction with Springfield Armory to field the M1A SOCOM for more compact firepower. I hope to buy one someday.

ExSoldier · December 6th, 2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Just Rogue Warrior was non-fiction, correct?

No, I think he got away with RED CELL before they cracked down on him. That was a masterful ongoing operation. They were tasked with penetrating government facilities and showing up security deficiencies. RED CELL was non fiction, too. After that they started being "fiction."

ExSoldier · December 6th, 2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Only Manauzzi and Orrantina were not seriously wounded, Risner was uninjured. Which brings us back to the mantra of shot placement.

This drifts right back to the tired old arguments on bullet size: 9mm v. .45ACP when the real issue is size, yes, but more so the power behind the projectile and the actual bullet configuration of the round.

OD · December 6th, 2005, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky

I think the 5.56mm cartridge doesn't perform as well for the military due to the use of FMJ only. Hps or soft points really enhance the performance. Haven't tried the Hornady TAP ammo yet, but have heard it performs well. Also , its all about application. 7.62 penetrates better, but is alot heavier to carry, ammo too.

rocky,

It worked very well in it original loading and before Mc Namara's bean counters deleted the chrome bores and chambers. Special Forces were very impressed with the weapon and it's killing abilities. As I said earlier, The Black Rifle is a must read if you want the truth of the matter.

OD · December 6th, 2005, 10:18 PM

Right you are, I had forgotten Red Cell and I even have the video.

rocky · December 6th, 2005, 10:44 PM

Read alot on the AR/ M -16 development,as well as a few Rogue warrior books. I own a CArbon 15 Bushy, and can see lugging an M1A around for any purpose. As far a performance, the 5.56mm seems to work ok in a SP configuration with proper shot placement.

joe/OH · December 6th, 2005, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Only Manauzzi and Orrantina were not seriously wounded, Risner was uninjured. Which brings us back to the mantra of shot placement.

It's been awhile since I've gone over the details, but I believe the guy who ended up finishing off Platt and Matix was the same guy who was shot in the arm with the .223. If the arm would not have been there it would have been a heart shot. Luckily the bone stopped the bullet. Several other cases where injury would have likely resulted in death if a larger cartridge would have been used - bullet stopped by the vertebrae, bullet failing to penetrate car door without fragmenting, etc. It's too late to go digging through those details again, it just struck me as a classic example of lack of 'finishing power' even when shot placement is spot on.

Speaking of shot placement, I believe I read somewhere that the AR-15 was conceived with the notion that aimed shots did not affect outcome in battle - therefore - more lead in the air the better. We could almost say the AR-15 is the result of spray-n-pray military indoctrination. :)

OD · December 6th, 2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

but I believe the guy who ended up finishing off Platt and Matix was the same guy who was shot in the arm with the .223.

Edmundo Mireles JR., I believe his wound was front to rear (left arm, shotgun at port arms). Platt's arm slowed the 9mm enough to keep it from reaching the heart.

Quote:

the AR-15 was conceived with the notion that aimed shots did not affect outcome in battle - therefore - more lead in the air the better. We could almost say the AR-15 is the result of spray-n-pray military indoctrination.

I've not been able to find that in the Gov't. documents printed in the book, yet.

joe/OH · December 6th, 2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OD

Edmundo Mireles JR., I believe his wound was front to rear. Platt's arm slow the 9mm enough to keep it from reaching the heart.

I've not been able to find that in the Gov't. documents printed in the book, yet.

Ok, I couldn't resist looking it up. The bullet never reached Mireles's chest.

http://www.ar15.com/content/articles/history/birth.html

Quote:

ORO's investigations revealed that in the overall picture, aimed fire did not seem to have any more important role in creating casualties than randomly fired shots. Marksmanship was not as important as volume. Fire was seldom effectively used beyond 300 meters due to terrain (WWII, Korea) although sharpshooters in WWI frequently saw 1200m shots, and it discovered that most kills occur at 100 meters or less.

From this data, ORO concluded that what the Army needed was a low recoil weapon firing a number of small projectiles so in 1957 the United States Army Continental Army Command (CONARC) sought commercial assistance in the development of a 5.56mm military rifle.

December 6th, 2005, 10:05 PM	#21
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 2,735	Just Rogue Warrior was non-fiction, correct? __________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper*

December 6th, 2005, 10:18 PM	#26
OD VIP Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Vatican City Posts: 2,735	Right you are, I had forgotten Red Cell and I even have the video. __________________ OD "Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...." -------------------------------------------- *"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper*

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December 6th, 2005, 10:44 PM	#27
rocky Senior Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: MI Posts: 11,767	Read alot on the AR/ M -16 development,as well as a few Rogue warrior books. I own a CArbon 15 Bushy, and can see lugging an M1A around for any purpose. As far a performance, the 5.56mm seems to work ok in a SP configuration with proper shot placement.