OD

Interesting, thank you.

That's true, I doubt a .308 would have either. He was shot in the left arm with the gun held at port arms.

__________________
OD
"Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...."
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"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper

joe/OH

It would have hurt more. :)

OD

__________________
OD
"Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...."
--------------------------------------------
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper

ExSoldier

What makes you so certain that this book wasn't written specifically to be a defense of the gun (and also the industrial types who made zillions of $$ from it)? I take my opinions from multiple resources including personal experience. I do have some specific problems with the M16 platform, but those have been fairly addressed by design "tweaks" over the years....although recent reports from the sand box seem to suggest new problems to be addressed. But really, my problem is with the 5.56mm rd. For ex if TPTB wanted to field the next M4 in the new 6.8mm cal, I think that'd be perfectly fine.

__________________
Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

rocky

Seems 7.62X41 would be a good way to go. You could shoot the 7.62X39 but they couldn't shoot your ammo, since AK variant are so world wide in use.

ExSoldier

WOW! TRUER words were never spoken! Bullseye. We need to revert to the beliefs of the book on WWI sniping called A Rifleman Went to War and the authors name escapes me right now. I think it's MacBride?

I think if you'll look at current reports coming from the sandbox, the mucho lead in the air doctrine doesn't work as well as the odd angry and accurate shot. Especially in CQB situations. Maybe a hybrid technique...a 'la Robert A. Heinlein: Get a shot off FAST then make your second shot perfect....

__________________
Former Infantry Captain; 20 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

rocky

For certian applications the 7.62 is better , but for CQB and F/A or burst fire, give me a controllable 5.56 over the 7.62. I think this fact was 1 reason for the M-16 to be put in service. M-14's were hard to control F/A. as far a long distance though, give me a 7.62 any day.

bottom line the AR is a fun, controllable, easy to re configure gun. Lots of parts to be had and easy to change out. From the reports I have been reading the new Springfield M1A's have issues.

OD

Well, I suppose that it could be military-industrial complex conspiracy but this books seems unbiased, showing warts and all.

Same in my case, but in the private sector for hands on experience and second hand information from Vets who used the weapon in combat.

But then again, as the old saw goes,"History is but a lie agreed upon."

__________________
OD
"Slow down, you'll get a more harmonious outcome...."
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"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." - Jeff Cooper

Kentucky

Then there is the 'contract' soldier in Iraq who , unlike the US forces who can only use FMJ, shot an Iraqi soldier from several hundred yards away with a hollow point .223 and hit the guy in the left butt cheek. The bullet climbed up into the lower abdomen and began shredding most all of his lower organs, ie intestines, stomach, liver, spleen etc. and of course resulted in death , all from a 'butt' shot !!!.
The M4 .223 Bushmaster I have has impressed me many times, for instance the other day I leaned a bar of 3/16" thick steel up against a 8" diameter walnut tree back in my woods and fired a XM193 FMJ at it from approx. 100' away. It punched a 3/8" diameter hole through the steel bar and when I went to retrieve it, saw it had also went thru the walnut tree and left a good sized exit hole on the back side of the tree.
I was impressed.
As far as shot placement, yep , of course that is most important but most all of the deaths from the D.C. sniper a while back were from a single shot, one which went in an arm, through the arm into the chest cavity, where it proceeded to tear apart the heart and lung. !
People can poo poo the .223 all they want but it's not a bad bullet at all.
Even the Russian AK 47 maker went to a smaller bullet when they created the AK 74 . Yes the AK 47 has a larger more 'energized' bullet, but like the .223, the AK 74 bullet goes into a more tumbling tissue destructor than the larger one.

__________________
diplomacy ... the art of saying "nice doggie"..while looking for a big rock !!

Terry G

Hey, this is better than the old revolver versus Semi-Automatic debate. I took basic training with the M-14 7.62 x 51 MM and found it to be a great gun. Hard hitting, superbly accurate, and the weapon and ammunition heavy as hell. It was also impossible to control on full automatic, so most M-14's had the selector locked on semi. I went through infantry training with a really beat up M-16 that worked anyway. When I went across the pond, they gave me a brand new M-16A1. After zeroing the weapon and putting twenty 18 rounds magazines through it, I never looked back. It never, ever, let me down. As far as "knock down power" I don't recall seeing anyone jumping right back up after getting hit with a 5.56MM M193 round. I do remember an NVA that took a round of 5.56 in the left bicep and was dead by the time we got to him. Our medic said it was hydrostatic shock that killed him. I also know of a VC that took a burst of three rounds of M-60 (7.62) ammunition and walked into our perimeter to surrender. He became a "Kit Carson" scout for the Special Forces three months later! I have a lot of faith in the AR-15/M-16 design. The first gun I bought when I got home was a Colt AR-15 SP-1. I still have it. ALway's will.

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