miklcolt45

I think issues of penetration make a shotty with something less than OO buck a better choice. 9mm will penetrate 3, even 4 walls made up of drywall. .223 couldn't do too much less. SG shells 1 or 2 on the demonstration I saw.

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Mike

In God we trust. Everyone else,
keep your hands where I can see them.

bmcgilvray

Hi QKShooter;

I was comparing my Remington Model 11, Model 870, and Winchester Model 12 with guns like the M1 Carbine, Winchester Model '92 or similar sized Marlin Model 94, or any of the compact pistol caliber carbines such as the Kel Tec, Hi-Point, Marlin Camp Carbine or similar. These small rifles have more compact receivers and can have shorter overall length than the shotguns. Even a Marlin 336 or Winchester Model 94 is more compact than most repeating shotgun actions I can think of. An AR 15, SKS, or AK 47 however...not so much.

Practice certainly does make perfect but many own these guns and don't practice. "Short shucking" a pump gun can introduce a whole new world of jams. I've not had enough jams in my life to condemn the breed but in a lot of dove, duck, and skeet shooting had a few occasions to clear a jam that required some determination. The few times that any repeating shotgun I've owned ever "hung up" it had something to do with failure to eject and seemed to be a minor chore to pry out the empty.

I'd love to own and play with an Ithaca Model 37. Another admirable John Browning design.

Just an observation but some folks can't do a handgun unless it is semi auto and has the ammo capacity of a quart fruit jar contained within its grip frame. It seems that the handgun must be of the "everlasting shooting" type in order to cope with every perceived scenario with multiple attackers but the same folks will accept as adequate the pump shotgun with it's six to ten round capacity and slower reload. That's ok, I'm happy with the capacity too.

I'm not considering the relative point-ability of the shotgun to other firearms but the fallacious notion that the shotgun is effective if only pointed generally in the direction of the target.

My imperfect observations are that the recoil reducers are more often used in competition than on the self defense models of shotguns.

Shotguns made for field use may be well balanced for the purpose but I'm not too keen on most of the short barreled shotguns.

The 20 gauge should be just as effective as the 12 gauge out where it counts. Probably more use should be made of the 20 gauge as a fighting shogun.

I do prefer the auto loading shotgun for personal defense. I've had reliable function with the type and the "look Maw, one hand" capability might come in handy.

I'm just picking brains and offering food for thought. I ain't the last word on the subject. I've been cleaning guns all day and pondering this.

mr.stuart

A shotgun is a fearsome weapon. Think of all the news articles and news reports where shots are fired from handguns and rifles. Thinks of how many bullets actually hit a person as opposed to the number of shots fired. Also, think of shooting in semi darkness. IMO, in a house, a short shotgun would be better. If a load of buckshot hits a human, it will probably stop them. Just my 2 cents.

sgtD

The OP has some valid points.

When I lived alone, my primary HD gun was a riot gun in 12ga. now things are different, becuase there are other users besides me in the house.

The wife and I choose revolvers for home defense. She and I both have one.

Why? Becuase the manual of arms is simple. Aim and pull the trigger. No jams, no clearing drills. You can leave one loaded nearly forever and it will still work, no springs to go bad etc. One is stainless and the other is titanium, so they are low maintainence.

Easy to move with and not as easy for the bad guy to grab from two feet away. (although if you let him get that close in the first place you screwed up)

Also the recoil from a 2 3/4 buckshot, out of a 18" barreled pump gun is quite considerable to say the least. expecially for a small person or the average woman.

Now, we shoot shotguns more than anything else. (with target loads) My wife really only has "fun" shooting shotguns. She shoots pistols and rifles, and shoots them well, but flying targets are what she has fun with. She has many, many , many more rounds downrange from her shotgun than from pistols and rifles put together. However, a shotgun is still not our HD choice for the above reasons.

It's also easier to secure hanguns from little ones than it is a long gun, IMO.

I have no worries as to the reliability of shotguns or shotgun ammo, but other factors are important too.

If some idiot called me on the phone and said, "hey, I'm coming over to your house for a gun fight, you can bet I'd be waiting with a shotgun, but for everyday considerations, a revolver is a better choice for me and mine.

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CRags99

I like both rifles and shooties for HD but right now my alliance is with shotties because I can find shot shells everywhere - rifle ammo is a bit harded to come by. Also, up close a shotty has a better tolerance for bad aim.

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Glock 27

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broknindarkagain

I have never had a jam or or failure to fire out of either of my 870s. Throw a youth model stock on it and an 18 inch barrel and you're set.

A 3inch 00Buck will do much more damage much quicker then a single .223.

IMO, if you can't stop the threat with 7 rounds of 12g (assuming that there is one) then you have no business holding a gun.

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Taurus PT111 Pro 9mm

Tom357

I wouldn't call an 18" barrel on a shotgun a "tactical goody", but a practical choice for an HD long gun. Just as an 18" barrel carbine is a more practical choice than a 26" rifle. If OAL is a concern, there are lever-action shotguns that are the same OAL as their rifle carbine counterparts, there are bullpup configurations, and frankly, the OAL of a pump-action or semi-auto shotgun with an 18" barrel is not that much greater, if at all, than their carbine counterparts.
In terms of HD, the loaded ammo isn't bulky. Additional ammo can be carried on the weapon, sling and bandolier, as with other long guns. Given the nature of HD situations, it seems to me that the loaded ammo is all that really matters, and loaded ammo is a non-issue.
The only feed mechanism that matters is the one you are using. As with any HD weapon, choosing premium quality ammo that works reliably in YOUR weapon is vital.
They sure can. I recall a friend of mine having his .308 sieze up, entirely because of a lacquered cartridge FTE stuck in the chamber. Any firearm can jam, including a revolver. Training and practice clearing jams should be part of training with any firearm.
Many own handguns and rifles and don't practice. I'm not sure that this is a valid argument against shotguns versus rifles or handguns.
We are talking about use in the home, not use as a carry weapon at home and away. You raise this as an argument against shotguns, but then say it isn't a concern. Fewer shots are fired in HD incidents than in SD incidents away from home. I don't see capacity as an argument against the HD shotgun. With magazine extensions, side saddles, speedfeed butt stocks and butt cuffs, it is possible to give a shotgun more capacity than a 1911 with two mags. I wouldn't rule out HD shotguns, as a class, based on the perceived needs of a subset of gunowners.
I disagree. Loading a tube magazine is loading a tube magazine. If you are comparing loading a tube magazine to changing box magazines, then you can make the same argument against a lever-action or pump-action carbine vs a semi-auto carbine with a detachable magazine. I submit that it is just as fast to change magazines on a shotgun with a detachable magazine, as it is to change magazines on a rifle with a detachable magazine. In fact, as far as reloading goes, a pump-action shotgun gives you the option of reloading directly to the chamber.
I don't think a fallacious notion is a basis for disqualifying the shotgun for HD.
You do a lot of hedging, so it is difficult to argue the point, but the ComforTech stock offered on Benelli defense shotguns reduces recoil significantly. There are recoil reducing stocks available specifically for defense shotguns, such as the Knoxx Spec Ops stocks. Recoil management is an issue, not only for shotguns, but for handguns and rifles, as well. Flinching from recoil is a problem with all three.
Again, hedging makes this difficult to argue. May be but not always. This may be more of an issue with a field gun adapted for defensive use. A field gun balanced for a 28" barrel is going to handle differently if you cut down the barrel or replace it with an 18" barrel. Purpose built defense shotguns handle well in their base configurations. I think any shotgun is going to handle differently if you shift the weight forward with a magazine extension, and unbalance the receiver by hanging 8 rounds off the side and 6 rounds off the butt stock. Seems to me the relationship of felt recoil to the weight of the weapon holds true for rifles and handguns, too.
Hmm. You can find shotguns in compact configurations. You can greatly increase ammunition capacity. You can mitigate felt recoil with recoil management devices ranging from mercury recoil reducers to add-on recoil butt pads, shoulder pads, recoil management stocks. If by 'truly mitigates' you mean 'eliminates', then I'd counter by pointing out that none of these issues is truly mitigated in handguns or rifles, either.
No personal/home defense firearm is a sure bet. People have survived being shot with just about everything.
Agreed. And this is an argument against the shotgun for HD, how?
I think the shotgun can be extremely effective for home defense. It has much greater wound potential than any handgun and many carbines. And, with the right ammunition, it has less overpenetration risk than many rifles and some handguns.

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- Tom
You have the power to donate life.

bmcgilvray

OK Tom, you win the cookie.

bsnow

I just converted my 870 hunter to HD status, and happy with it. At close range it intimidates and destroys as required. I couldn't be happier or more confident with this shotty because I've owned it and shot it forever, never has let me down.

pgrass101

I use a M1 carbine for HD, because my wife likes to shoot it, it is lite and easy to handle.

If I travel and carry a long gun with me then I take a 12 ga shotgun.

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