Janq

Cuban,

I do not assume they have sold tens of thousands.
I know this as fact as based on direct commentary and conversation to me in private conversation about the product by the VP of S&W, the Commercial Markets Manager and the VP of Marketing as well as factory floor staff aka 'fitters' who have been working full swing shifts to assemble them and get units out the door so as to meet demand.

I do training & instruction work (as amongst my personal life) with S&W and happen to know through those efforts the Customer Service Manager as well, which I'd posted toward in the first thread with the guy who had the bad round. In fact on my own I'd reached out to him directly and forwarded a link for that thread to his attention. I'd posted that as well and I have posted in the past far and recent that I to various degrees have and do maintain a relationship with S&W.
I assure you I am not supposing or assuming anything as related to units sold, specifically toward the M&P15 series widely. They are right now and have been extremely popular as in the market both civilian and LEO.

But with that said your impression that I was being a "defender" in prior post is off base.
What I'd stated was that the internet is full of people complaining AND that every mfr. has had this or that complaint and problem. Again name one that has not and I'm pretty sure I could within 2 minutes effort locate you a forum that has multiple pages of woe postings against said make or model. That's the internet be the product firearms, lawnmowers, hair dryers, or even baby diapers made from cloth (machine versus handmade versus made in the USA vs import vs...).

As to your question abut the LAPD, what has that got to do with the subject at hand?
This is rifles...Not handguns? Might as well ask me about S&W revolvers that came with internal locks from a decade ago. That would be equally relevant too, which is irrelevant.
But if you are truly wondering and would like an answer then head over to smith-wessonforum.com and ask there considering that is a forum well known to be dedicate to the specific product. They may have the answers you seek, inclusive of defenders et. al.

This subject could be literally _any_ AR15 manufacturer, with exception of Remington...only because they just started offering product, as they all have had complaints and customer service incidents and what not.
For proof of that just go to AR15.com. The complaints and complainers are all over the place there. Heck they amongst themself cannot agree on what single manufacturer is best to buy from for an AR15 and they have even gone through the etrouble to multiple times create a mfr. matrix cross reference. But they battle about that as well so it gets updated and reupdated only to have the updates discussed and debated.

Again as according to the internets the best thing to do is to buy nothing and stockpile rocks.
But then I'm sure there is a forum of geologists, amateur and professional, who would and likely do argue what rocks suck and which ones are hardest and why.

- Janq

P.S. - My posts above do not at all disparage nor reduce/lessen the views and specific experiences of persons who actually as owners have had issues with any given manufacturer, including S&W. Nor should anyone see them as such.

Further as full disclosure, I do not own any S&W stock nor do business with them as a client relationship (I'm not paid by them in any form or fashion). I get nothign to my own pocket whether they sell one unit or a zillion units. It literally makes no difference to me either way.
And I do not own any S&W product nor ever have for that matter. Why? Simply because I just haven't gotten around to buying anything from them, yet.
Also it's a known here per my own prior posts that I personally am not a fan of the AR15/M4/M16 firearm as in format/human interface or in the Stoner DI design. My own personal view (ergos) and opinion (mechanical design).
But, I do plan to buy not just one but two AR15s in the coming 12 months and they both will come from S&W only because they happen to offer what I now desire and best meet my requirements as with exclusion of AR based ergos.
I'll buy a commercial off the shelf unit just like anybody else....and roll the dice be it good, bad, or ugly.
M&P15PC and M&P15-22.

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

cuban11182

Jang,

Thanks for your rapid response.

I think most people come to the internet to determine if a product will meet what they need out of it. I know I've done that will all my guns, my motorcycle, mine and the wife's car. Instead of wasting my hard earned money on something that may have re-occuring issues with it, I'd like to find out first hand, by word of mouth, on what everybody who has owned/driven/fired one has to say. To me it's worth my time to research the product before purchase.

In regards to the LASD (not LAPD sorry) dropping the M&P line. It has alot to do with the issue, if the quality of the product that the LASD received was below their standard then they did the right thing. That product is made by S&W, the manufacturer of the MP 15.

I'm sure that if we tore apart the internet we would find cases of issues will ALL manufacturers. The issue still remains that S&W gave these guys the run around, I would assume to anticipate them just giving up and purchasing another one. With another thread on this forum, you can see that the guy made a mistake with his reloads and blew up his LCP. Ruger replaced it all for free. That to ME is customer service. I'm not saying it is a good idea for a company to replace something for someone else's mistake, but that gave me the warm and fuzzy after I purchased my LCP.

I really don't want to get into a urinating match with you though. I have no ties to any manufacturer of firearm so my opinion is not biased. I'm just an active duty Coastie, giving his opinion, on what I feel may be an inferior product.

Oh and I am stockpiling rocks and sticks, just in case my home built AR blows up.
Cuban

Janq

Ditto man...My kids have been collecting rocks and pebbles all summer.
Although possession of sling shots and slung shot arms is illegal here in MA. :|

I have my own CS stories as with relation to Sig having replaced all of the internals to my GSR with completely new parts, _thrice_!, upon me sending in my GSR to them as I do every two years for a general review and analysis as I train with it very often and it's got a high round count.
No charge to me as they have thus far warrantied everything! Not that I'm not willing to pay for stuff I've worn out.
The only thing original on my gun is the barrel, frame and the grips. That's all. They had even sent me a new packet of lube for free.

Thus far I've owned three different Sig Arms/Sig Sauer product across the past 18 yrs. and have had nothing but good experiences by them, all interestingly with product that is/was alleged to have been suck and/or unreliable....and by a company that supposedly is lacking in customer service. Weird.
It's no accident that I keep returning to spend coin on Sig product. Even as they too have had some product gaffes here and there, which have been widely reported and reviewed on forums et. al. (Mosquito and early release GSR units such as mine had been).

Then there is my thread from almost exactly to the day two years ago about my experience with Springfield Armory which was ridiculously excellent!
They sent me a WHOLE NEW AND BETTER GUN as in exchange against my old gun that I'd bought _used_ and was roughly 8 yrs. old with by my hand of ownership alone very many rounds through it on the order of probably 10 to 15K. The owner before me didn't have it as a closet queen either.

What would you do? I'm being offered a new 1911 from SA
October 2nd, 2007, 11:56 AM

I could go on about my experiences with Colt and Kimber too as well but I won't.
Again not saying that other folks _direct_ experiences are invalidated because they are not.
But I know for sure from working amongst my own companys widely varying product based clients, who also often have whole internet posts and even forums dedicated to their own product, that there is commonly more to a given users/operators story of woe than what is stated on the internet. Even as there might be multiple instances of the same end result...and it's not at all unusual in the product market for quantity buyers to return product for any number of reasons. I see this regularly in my own work world as related to government and state purchasing for product from chairs to document processors to bio-medical devices.

Back on pint though, I personally would not take two instance as posted here and by that think to write off an entire line of product or for that matter a whole companys product line offerings plural present, past, or future.
S&W has had some lemons. We all know this. Heck they know it too.

But so is the same story with everyone from Colt to Kimber to Sig to Glock to Bushmaster to...Even as on the whole these all are top tier vendors.

- Janq

"[I] gotta get out of this place. If it's the last thing I ever do..." - The Animals

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

cuban11182

If they know it (everyone does once in a while) then the Customer Service should have been better. That's my main issue.

Have a great day.

Janq

Cuban.

In that statement you quote I was speaking broadly as over the history of their companies total offerings as ever sold, not in specific to this single users singular case with a single product item as sold from a single model line (!).

Two against literally tens of thousands of units shipped does not make a trend.
One does not have to have any relation to any vendor in any manner what so ever to understand that.
As to CS support again case by case basis and though some guy blew up his Ruger for using reloads and the mfr. went ahead and sent him a new unit anyway (similar to my SA situation with worn parts) that is not to say nor should one think that any other vendor who does not react same for others in a specific case is thus being lesser or not providing good CS support on the whole as to all their other cases.
To think so simply is not fair nor balanced.

- Janq

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

C hawk Glock

Janq,

By no means am I putting down S&W AR's. I can only go by here say and information that is in front of me. I do not own one and have not shot one, but that does not mean I have not heard of problems with them. ARCOM has posts about issues with them as well. By the way your mentioning of Glock's kabooming is very valid and the reason why I don't shoot reloads in mine.

I might be one of the odd balls, but I believe many of these issues are caused by ammo more often then the gun.

__________________
Thank you sir, may I have another?

Janq

Agreed across the board C hawk.

Including ARFcom who has a problem with every rifle/carbine product ever made by anyone, ever (!).
Which makes for some interesting if not out right entertaining reading. :p

Count me in with you as an odd ball as well.

I too believe/feel that a good portion if not many of the issues are ammunition related without otherwise regard to the gun.
And not speaking singularly to S&W M&P15s only either.

BTW if there were say 200 such cases, rather than 2, then I'd be like okay there is a problem there, regardless of the mfr. be it S&W, Sig, Colt, Glock or who ever.
But that is not the case, here. Further it's a known that the first item was ammo related (Remington) at that,per the OPs own statements and reporting in his thread. His beef and real issue was with Remington's bad ammo.

Yes the threads here and at ARFcom are long in discussion length BUT the actual amount of owners/end users as within those threads are singular such as is the case for the two threads here.
Two problems does not make a trend. At ARFcom there are probably ten others maybe with same. Again against literally thousands of units out the door.

But hey if folks don't want to deal with such problems and be able to digest whatever ammo including Wolf too, then maybe get a Sig instead.
OMG...Controversy! :)

<Pulls on Nomex flame resistant suit>

Anyway this was fun but I'm done.
Gotta get back to work making cheese to pay for ammo, from Remington.

- Janq

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

Janq

Update:

As per an update from the OP as in the _second_ M&P15 blow up thread it is confirmed that Remington the ammo. mfr. is again at cause for the issue.

This is as I'd stated prior not a S&W product problem at all nor are their CS folk at fault for not just handing out free replacement guns because faulty ammo blew up in them. Ones issue and argument is the ammo manufacturer, which in both cases reported here at DC.com link back to Remington.

The latest update can be found here today as of 2:04P EST
S&W M&P-15 Exploded

But I also guarantee this not insignificant fact willbe forgotten/left out too, as with the first incident, and all that folks will recall and speak on is mfr. name and model, 'blew up'.
Which simply is not the whole story and is not an objective nor fair re-telling of the tale be the product by S&W or fill in the blank other vendor.

But hey, that's the internets for ya.

- A grain of salt

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post

cuban11182

NM don't want to keep it going.

Janq

I doubt it.

Putting blame to a third party as from a legal stand point is not something any company would take lightly nor do without cause.
I myself manage a corporation and there is no way we would do same at all never mind as related to a customer unless there was very good and substantive cause.

Further as based on _both_ of the OPs own statements of what occurred from the start to my own mind, and that of others in both threads, the issue was clearly caused by and related to ammunition.
Both instances in fact were and are ammunition related problems. That the AR is possibly sensitive to ammunition per it's DI design is not the fault of S&W as it is not their design. Nor would as much be specific just to S&W as the vast majority of ARs are of DI design.

You can't really blame one company for not jumping up and down to go to bat as against a whole other third party toward an incident such as this.
Yes it would be nice if they did so...But to expect as much at all muchless each and every time such an event occurs, that is a stretch.
As to your item about Ruger and their LCP with some guy reloading that makes more sense for them to do as that model is brand new to market and based on a completely new frame design. Which is not applicable nor even remotely relevant to this with S&W and a rifle based on a nearly 50 yr. old and widely copied design.
Apples and pears.

In this specific case it was the Remington ammo, no ifs about it, so say by analysis both S&W and Remington as per the OPs own statements toward finality.
Yes it took time to come to an agreement toward that fact. But it's only been what 3 months. All things being equal as related to other industries such as that of automotive to get a conclusive response in 90 days is quick.

s to the why of this, my guess is that one round was badly undercharged (too little powder) resulting in the firearm not having enough kinetic energy as gas to cycle completely.
Next round comes along with a partially open/unsealed bolt and boom!!...Metal goes flying here there and elsewhere. This could and has happened to any other brand/type manufacture firearm.

It should not happen with commercial ammo, but this wouldn't be the first time and likely is not the last.

- Janq

__________________
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
Monday, March 12, 2007 -- Op Ed -- The Washington Post